Give a little to get a lot, First time at Telford and Jug

[cavemark]

LOL Mark, they're letting you do jumps AND gaps now.....

Rich

My life didn't start out easy, I used to get lost in the mall parking lot just after I got my driver's license. Now that I know how to use a guideline that doesn't happen anymore.

Let me know the next time you go to Diepolder if you have an extra slot. I need one more dive in 3 so I can go in 2. Bird's keeps asking me how many more times I need in 3.

[stairman]

Great ! Let's encourage an obviously dangerous behavior with flawed logic !


P.S. Nice report Jeff although I disagree on pushing limits.

Im not encouraging nothin Chimie. We all know the guidelines and are all adults here. I dont think anyone is gonna do anything because stairman says its ok. I am all for finishing the caveprogram and staying safe. I know the deal, its all fun till something goes wrong, then its a test to see how one reacts and a fullcave cert isnt a guarantee that your not gonna panic. I am totally against breaking the rules on your own as an into diver or with only other intro divers though.

[Rich]

Im not encouraging nothin Chimie. We all know the guidelines and are all adults here. I dont think anyone is gonna do anything because stairman says its ok. I am all for finishing the caveprogram and staying safe. I know the deal, its all fun till something goes wrong, then its a test to see how one reacts and a fullcave cert isnt a guarantee that your not gonna panic. I am totally against breaking the rules on your own as an into diver or with only other intro divers though.

So Randy, maybe I'm reading this wrong and I apologize if I am, but it kinda looks like you're saying that it's okay for Intro divers to dive to thirds and do jumps if they're with a Full Cave Diver. Now personally I do this all the time, but it happens to be my job and well, I've gone through a wee bit of training for it...

Believe me, I've seen some Intro divers who "thought" they were the bees knees, come unglued very fast when the fake stuff starts happening, let alone the real thing. This is why, IMHO Full Cave divers should not even consider taking Intro divers beyond their training level, because in general they are not going to have the experience and/or training to take control of the situation at any given moment. Another thing to consider is that the Intro diver probably looks up with respect to the Full Cave diver and takes his/her input at face value, so what kind of example are we setting for him/her? That it's okay to break the rules? On another note, I'd also like to thank one of my former students who posted on this thread echoing my opinion, good on ya mate, I'm glad to see you listened in class and are being proactive!

Now I know it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and point fingers, but I'm trying not to do that and I'm also not making any judgments on anyone involved here. However what I'm VERY interested in, is stopping yet another needless fatality that could easily have been prevented. Training, or lack thereof is the first guideline of Accident Analysis for God's sake! I could start listing the multiple fatalities I've been personally affected by involving people who decided to go beyond their level of training, but would it do any good? There's always going to be the clown that thinks the rules don't apply to him or her, so instead let me try this. Some of you may remember this article I wrote for the Journal a few years back, if you haven't seen this and are currently diving or thinking about diving above your level of training, please give it a read, the life you save may well be your own... http://divecaves.com/?p=312

Safe diving, please!

Rich

[stairman]

Rich I hav the upmost respect for you and your opinion an value your friendship and wont condone any breaking of the rules set fourth. I thought Jason bridged 2 gaps at open sinks during the day in Telford and personally dont see the danger in it. I know nothing about thirds or other violations broken. No doubt Jason has the bug and will be full cave in another 6 months or less and this will be forgotten. With a fullcaver bridging those gaps for him I thought that was actually within guidelines.

[Greenwood_60]

If anyone would like a first hand account of any of this, please PM me. Anyone else just interested in drama, feel free to run your mouth if it makes you feel good.

That being said, a certification limitation was broken on this dive. I have no interest in further discussing my actions publicly. No diver should be encouraged the dive beyond their abilities, comfort, and training.

Again, if anyone would like a first hand account of any of this, please PM me.

[loquat149]

If anyone would like a first hand account of any of this, please PM me.

Again, if anyone would like a first hand account of any of this, please PM me.

Okay, PM sent.

Dave

[Greenwood_60]

Thanks, reply sent.

[Rich]

Now I know it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and point fingers, but I'm trying not to do that and I'm also not making any judgments on anyone involved here. However what I'm VERY interested in, is stopping yet another needless fatality that could easily have been prevented.

First off, sorry to quote my own post, but my point here was NOT to point fingers or call anybody out! Randy, the sinks at Telford were already gapped by the time Jason got there and you don't have to explain yourself to me bud, I know you well enough not to worry about you in the water! Hell, I even know a cave instructor that pre-bridges the sinks at Telford to be able to teach Intro classes there....

For the record, this was not a witch hunt or a condemnation of anyone, my point was to stop what I would call the "silent condonement" of Intro divers breaking their limitations, where we all look the other way and then secretly pat them on the back for being brave or whatever other stupid nonsense we come up with to justify it. Cave diving is a sport where we can literally live or die by the decisions we make and those decisions can have very far reaching effects. When somebody dies in the overhead, it affects each and everyone of us, either on a personal level or on a more distant level such as losing access etc, so I basically wanted everyone to stop the bickering and the yammering and just think about things for a sec.....

I'm fairly sure most of those that have perished in an UW cave didn't plan on it, something happened along the way to cause it and 99% of the time that would be human error; we're not as infallible as we think we are, so remember that and please keep your cave diving as safe as it can be.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[stairman]

Rich, it is good to cool our heels sometimes and re think our dive plans. As an instructor I know you have seen panic in others 1st hand as well as participating in dreaded body recoveries and are just trying to keep us all alive and well, thanks man. I probably shouldnt have chimed in on this thread anyway so Im done with it. On with my next adventure now!

[kidsdream]

Ahem.... You clearly took you buddies into at least the cavern at Orange Grove. There were no bubbles coming to the surface at OG for over 10 minutes. Not sure how far you went in, but this certainly does not show respect for the cave community or your instructor. The guys were diving single ALU 80's with standard yoke valves and only a single 1st stage, so I am not sure what your "safety" plan was.

I don't have a horse in this race, but you should be honest with your actions.

Dave: If you have a problem with me diving with friends in a location they are allowed (OW divers in OG), be man enough to say something IN PERSON AS YOU WATCH US GEAR UP. In fact, you are just across town... why don't we grab of cup of coffee, and you can explain your personal issues with me (starting with my post count, and me sorting out my own bungees).