Please don't touch goethite

[Kelly Jessop]

I pick up a white/brown rock and place it on the line

Skip
I would contend picking up any rock and placing in on the line can be causing impact. Placing rock on a line means that if someone pulls on that line,it can upturn the rock and disturb the bottom. Plus,removing a rock can expose isopods and amphipods to predators since they live on the floor in sheltered habitat like a reef fish does. This may seem picayune,but ultimately I subscribe to the philosophy,don't touch it

[Squirrel Girl]

Skip
I would contend picking up any rock and placing in on the line can be causing impact. Placing rock on a line means that if someone pulls on that line,it can upturn the rock and disturb the bottom. Plus,removing a rock can expose isopods and amphipods to predators since they live on the floor in sheltered habitat like a reef fish does. This may seem picayune,but ultimately I subscribe to the philosophy,don't touch it

Well said, Kelly. When I was writing about picking up rocks, I was thinking of the entrance area of Devil's Eye where there is high flow and a lot of cobbles. With those, I'd argue that it really won't make a difference if one picks up the rocks. In Peacock, for instance, in most of the cave, it might well mar the cave (and disturb cave life) if you pick up the rocks.

[skip]

i've read the wikipedia stuff and then some. and see the inter-links in wikipedia. the stuff is a black coating in the early stages as it chemically alters the limestone (iron/limestone interaction). it eventually replaces the limestone completely, given enough thousands of years. at that point it is no longer a coating that can be scratched or removed and reveal a substrate. it is now a rock in its own right. it may be rippled as kelly j mentioned, but it can also be knobbed, or look like clusters of grapes, or like small or large crystals, and even different colors (all depending on the specifics of the substrate). We see it in our Tennessee caves all over the place. In some places it is virtually the entire floor, except where the strongest current flow has cut a channel. I'll try to get out there next week (too much rain this week) and shoot some video of the formations. The form we have is lobbed or knobbed for the most part. Some of it breaks off easily from the main body, while some is rock-solid and unattached to anything (touching it and moving it do nothing visible to it, poke and hit it and it's rock-hard - you might be able to scratch it with a knife, but I haven't tried that). We also have mushroom shapes, some flattened-topped, extending out from the walls. Some are broken from divers, but most are broken by the debris that gets pumped through during the rainy season. The surrounding limestone is softer than the geothite and erodes more quickly, resulting in the geothite projections.

I understand the need for not touching anything - I adhere to a strict policy of conservation myself preferring to swim like a fish - you never seem them pulling and gliding, or bumping into things. Even when they snatch a meal, they disturb very little. I like the idea of leaving things as I found them, with as little evidence of my visit as possible. I worry about the mechanical effects of bubbles, and the chemical and biological effects of the the added oxygen and nitrogen we put into the water with every breath (time for a rebreather). Nothing against Kelly J, but posting a request not to pick up a lone black rock and set it down a foot or two from where it was needs a bit more explanation. And honestly, I don't see the big deal in that specific case. Who among us has not picked up a rock and moved it? White, or Gray or Red or Brown or black....Obviously breaking off a piece to toss aside is dirty pool, but simply moving a rock? A rock as common and widespread at geothite?

skip

[skip]

Skip
I would contend picking up any rock and placing in on the line can be causing impact. Placing rock on a line means that if someone pulls on that line,it can upturn the rock and disturb the bottom. Plus,removing a rock can expose isopods and amphipods to predators since they live on the floor in sheltered habitat like a reef fish does. This may seem picayune,but ultimately I subscribe to the philosophy,don't touch it

Your original post made it sound like geothite was the reason.

The rock I place on the line refers to running a line from open water to the goldline, not as a means of locating gold line. Thus it's always been in the cavern zone, entry area.

I now must admit that I've upturned rocks inside the cave specifically to tempt fish to come and eat the critters thus exposed. I've picked up dead fish and tempted crayfish to take it from my hand. Fish and Crayfish seem to have different personalities - some dash in and dash out snatching a bite on the run, some approach cautiously and back off suddenly, and some leave the area at once, wanting nothing to do with the whole situation. I've left baited live traps just to see what kind of creatures get trapped. I've even been known to move more than one rock for no other purpose than to see if I could make a hole big enough to get through. And don't even get me started on what I've done in the local quarries and in various oceans.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I move every rock I find or spend all my time messing with such things, but yes, one rock moved from A to Z does seem picayune.

I would hope at the very least that anyone doing anything in a cave does so with intention and awareness, and not with disregard and complacency, whatever their philosophy.

skip

[Kelly Jessop]

but posting a request not to pick up a lone black rock and set it down a foot or two from where it was needs a bit more explanation. And honestly, I don't see the big deal in that specific case. Who among us has not picked up a rock and moved it? White, or Gray or Red or Brown or black....Obviously breaking off a piece to toss aside is dirty pool, but simply moving a rock? A rock as common and widespread at geothite?

Skip you bring up a good point. Cave divers receive very good training in cave diving protocols and techniques,but the average cave class doesn't have the time to explain what is goethite,what are tubicifid worms,what is the difference between isopods and amphipods etc etc etc. But full cave training give us our "license" to explore and understand the environment that we are in,for something other than wet rocks. I am sure somebody came along and saw a line going through the middle of the passage,that they frequently have to push out of the way to avoid entanglement,and thought that a well placed rock would keep the line out of the way. Unfortunately,they pick up a unique formation,that doesn't handle touching well,and placed it on the line. Therefore we have physical contact of this formation already,but anybody touching or pulling on the line,this will pull on the underside of this formation even more (ever see the grooves line leaves in limestone when repeatedly pulled on). To go to real extreme,in this section of cave I have documented isopod populations who live here over the last 6 years. I have found that isopods use this formation as a predatory shelter,and this evidenced by large populations that can be found around goethite debris mounds.

[skip]

Skip you bring up a good point. Cave divers receive very good training in cave diving protocols and techniques,but the average cave class doesn't have the time to explain what is goethite,what are tubicifid worms,what is the difference between isopods and amphipods etc etc etc. But full cave training give us our "license" to explore and understand the environment that we are in,for something other than wet rocks. I am sure somebody came along and saw a line going through the middle of the passage,that they frequently have to push out of the way to avoid entanglement,and thought that a well placed rock would keep the line out of the way. Unfortunately,they pick up a unique formation,that doesn't handle touching well,and placed it on the line. Therefore we have physical contact of this formation already,but anybody touching or pulling on the line,this will pull on the underside of this formation even more (ever see the grooves line leaves in limestone when repeatedly pulled on). To go to real extreme,in this section of cave I have documented isopod populations who live here over the last 6 years. I have found that isopods use this formation as a predatory shelter,and this evidenced by large populations that can be found around goethite debris mounds.

thanks again for the further explaining. now i'm learning. good stuff worth repeating.

skip

[Kelly Jessop]

thanks again for the further explaining. now i'm learning. good stuff worth repeating.

skip

No problem,anytime

[MORGAN]

BTW if anyone wants to see a superb example of diving in a high flow cave without touching anything, pick up a copy of the "Bat Circuit" DVD by the late Harvey Boyd where the diver being filmed is funnily enough, Kelly Jessop.

My wife shows this or another Harvey Boyd DVD starring Kelly to her OW students before they ever get in the water, to give them an idea of what buoyancy, trim, and efficiency in the water are supposed to look like.

[B-Bob]

Careful, us Texians can get all riled up when Ya'll poke fun at us.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

What happens when Texans get all riled up?