The Hill 400 Thief...

[Unregistered User]

...is me. I stole those unsightly sunglasses that were hanging on the shortcut line near the bats on Fridayevening. Not only am I a thief, but a bona fide a-hole as well, since I didn't even use the sunglasses before destroying them and tossing them in the garbage. I wanted to take some of the bats, too, but they have a more storied history than sunglasses so they survived my thievery this time. That, and I didn't have enough room in my drysuit pocket.

In other news, KG and I had a nice scooter dive up the mainline and dropped the scooters at the beginning of the small circuit (around 2300') to the left where the mainline veers to the right through a small restriction and then swam the nice little tunnel that comes back to the main line at 2500'. We then turned around and drifted back to the scooters, then hopped back on them and went upstream to about 2800' before turning the dive. A very breezy exit where we left the mainline at the beetle tunnel jump and then made our way out via Hill400.
31% bottom gas and 95% O2 deco. bottom time 1 hour 20 minutes; 2 minutes deco @ 20' and 4 minutes @ 10'.

[diveconjeff]

I stole those unsightly sunglasses that were hanging on the shortcut line near the bats on Fridayevening. .

Truly a small world. I happened to find those sunglasses in the roller coaster tunnel maybe a year ago. Got near the end of the short cut line, needed a free hand and hung 'em on the line. They'd been there ever since. I introduced myself to GatorCaver after our dives Friday night, and he told me what he did. We had a good laugh over it.

TH & KG it was a pleasure to meet you guys Friday. Two great dives for me on Friday kicked off a weekend that just kept getting better! Perhaps I'll post it along with my Crypt question tomorrow...

[Unregistered User]

That was awesome Jeff! Do post your dive, especially if it's in the crypt. That place has such a menacing feel but- still- I can't bring myself to stop going in there. Been quite a few months since I've been back there, though.
Good meeting you, and even better conversation. We will have to do the Sherwood Split someday (gotta get my SM rig put back together first...). LOL

[KarsticGator]

likewise Jeff!

[deanme]

It would be my preference, and just me talking here, that you not remove the following items at Ginnie:

a. the bats
b. the red coral
c. the lizzard

These items have been in the cave at Ginnie for many moons. I find them to be fun and good conversation. They are not litter, nor are they causing anyone to not enjoy the caves any less than otherwise.

Of course, this is just my opinion. And I'm sure there are many who disagree.

If I could comment (and I'm sure this comment will draw out lots of disrespectful comments from others on this forum who don't like me) I find it presumptious and arrogant of you to take it upon yourself to remove these items without discussion. They have been in the cave at Ginnie for many years. Kind of like Steve Gerrard removing arrows that original explorers put into the cave in Mexico back in the 90's. It simply is not your position to decide what someone finds fun to look at in a cave. I would, however, welcome a respectful discussion and a decision by the cave diving community to remove them or not.

As a side note, just to make sure, I didn't put these items in the cave at Ginnie, nor would I ever consider doing anything permenant to any cave. That would be presumptious and arrogant of me. Not my style.

dean

[Tegg]

Just wondering... who decides what _is_ trash in the cave and what _is not_ trash?

[deanme]

Just wondering... who decides what _is_ trash in the cave and what _is not_ trash?

Even a better question, what is trash?

You are at an archeological site. What is trash? You are at a yard sale. Again, what is trash? How do you define trash? One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. When I go into my girlfriend’s house I find lots of … junk. If I remove it, I would get trashed.

I would offer up, that we as divers should put nothing permenant in the caves, other than lines and arrows and maybe a pull rope or two. And only then after the approval of the line arrow committee. Then the issue of what is trash becomes moot.

These three items, however, like the line arrows in Mexico placed in the 90’s, have, in my opinion, become part of the cave. Cave divers would go back into the caves in Mexico, just to look at the arrows set there by famous cave diving explorers back in the 90’s. Then one person decided, these arrows have no value and don’t belong in the cave. Presumptuous and arrogant. (I should mention I consider Steve Gerrard to be a friend of mine, and that no one is perfect, especially myself).

If you want to remove these three items from Ginnie, then maybe we should discuss getting rid of the “trash” in the Trash Room at JB. I, along with hordes of others, would greatly protest at removing the “trash” from the Trash Room at JB. It is historical and part of the cave. I have only been cave diving since 07, but I can tell you that at least the Bats and the Red Coral have been in Ginnie since 07. Not sure about the lizard. From my perspective, these items are no different than the pressure gage 3,000 feet back in Madison Blue, or the trash in the Trash Room. They are part of the cave; they are not trash.

Again, this is not to suggest these items should not be removed. But only after discussion and consensus. This is NOT the decision of some arrogant individual to take it upon himself to decide what is of value to others. Trust me if you tried to remove the trash in the Trash Room, or the pressure gage from Madison Blue, there are a lot of cave divers that would be horrified, myself included.

dean

[Kelly Jessop]

These three items, however, like the line arrows in Mexico placed in the 90’s, have, in my opinion, become part of the cave. Cave divers would go back into the caves in Mexico, just to look at the arrows set there by famous cave diving explorers back in the 90’s. Then one person decided, these arrows have no value and don’t belong in the cave. Presumptuous and arrogant.

The line arrow wars was brought on from line arrows having a name of a group on them versus being generic.

To me one of the most pitiful things was when Steve Berman died,people started removing his line arrows as souvenirs. I remember being at Ginnie and someone showing off that they found one of his line arrows. A part of Ginnie's history with a survey/exploration project was permenantly lost,and probably sit in the bottom of someone's gear bag.

[deanme]

The line arrow wars was brought on from line arrows having a name of a group on them versus being generic. .

Yes and no.

There where three issues with the line arrow wars in Mexico.

(a) By far the main issue with the line arrow wars is who gets to decide where to put the line, and how thick the line is.
(b) placing line arrows with a dive store printed on them. This was short lived. After Steve saw this was an issue, he stopped immidately and was truly sorry for the mistake. Any new arrow placed in the cave did not have the dive store printed on them.
(c) Steve removed arrows placed in the cave in the 90's by famous cave explorers "because they were not part of the cave and therefore didn't belong there" and replaced them with big red arrows (again the newer arrows didn't have a dive store printed on them).

I know about item (c) from a first hand conversation with Steve. The attitude is exactly what is being communicated by GatorCave. He is taking it upon himself to remove something historial from the cave because he has decided, in his great wisdom, that it doesn't belong there.

Again, you can argue "what is historial and what is trash". maybe these three items have not been the in cave long enough to be considered historial? Dunno. they have been there since 07 and i'm guessing a lot longer. But that is NOT GatorCave's decision.

dean

[Unregistered User]

... The attitude is exactly what is being communicated by GatorCave. He is taking it upon himself to remove something historial from the cave because he has decided, in his great wisdom, that it doesn't belong there.

Again, you can argue "what is historial and what is trash". maybe these three items have not been the in cave long enough to be considered historial? Dunno. they have been there since 07 and i'm guessing a lot longer. But that is NOT GatorCave's decision.

dean

I was trying to be facetious regarding the bats, as they have been there a long, long time- long enough that I would consider them somewhat sacrosanct. Their location at a key intersection of multiple passages adds to their novelty. The glasses, on the other hand, don't belong there for myriad reasons. While bats are associative with caves, sunglasses are clearly not. My infinite wisdom guided me to at least offer an explanation for the sunglasses' disappearance. By Deanme's logic, I can therefore empty a garbage can full of catheters in Mainland and dare any of you out there to disrupt the "historical significance" of my refuse. And don't you DARE remove them because, after all, that's "not your decision" to make. Sorry, but if I see crap (which is what those sunglasses clearly were-not even Ray-Bans) then I'm gonna remove it.