Rebreather bailout

[aainslie]

Just been reading my NACD magazine. Joe Citelli wrote the following (brackets are fill-ins for clarity):

"If (your instructor) advocates (team bailout) as the only way to dive, run. If he thinks it's insanity, run even quicker.... an instructor must recognize that a CCR in a cave is primarily a tool for exploration and most exploration is not feasible without incorporating at least some team bailout into the plan".

So... what's the middle ground and why? How much bailout gas for 2 people? How much for 3? 4?

Anyone have any rational approach to this, or are we all still just making this stuff up as we go along?

Is there an agrred upon agency rule, and if so, does it have a rational basis?

Just interested. What do people do? Personally I make damn sure that I'm getting out regardless of the others... but I rarely have "others" with me, so it's a moot point. I really don't get why exploration doesn't allow proper setup, this is just an issue of how many setup dives people are willing to do and I don't beleive that laziness should be a basis for gas planning.

[gasdiver]

Andrew, that was in the NSS-CDS magazine, but great question, none the less.

[w ripley]

It seems that everywhere, these days, there is only one way to do anything. Politics (I'm listening to the debt-ceiling posturing in DC as I write), diving, etc. I watch this BO argument on the different forums and what I read is "you either do it my way or it's wrong!" I've had a diver refuse to dive with me and told I was "old fashion," because I would not do team BOs.

Personally, I think instructors should teach the safest way they know, apprise the students of the options, and let the divers decide for themselves whether or not they are going to do their BOs in a different way. That's probably too much to ask of ALL instructors, but it makes sense to me.

The only statement that worries me is the one that says "the odds of two ______ (you fill in the blank) failing on a dive are remote." It's the two words "odds" and "remote" that give me pause. They aren't good odds, IMO, or at least not good enough for me.

I dive with all of my BO and do set-up dives when the dive requires it. Hey, I'm old fashion, a relic for sure, but I'm still here. It's probably why I'd rather dive solo than with another diver (just to check off the "buddy" box).

All you can ask is that everyone think about what they will do if everything does go south. If they really do, and I think most people on this forum do, then there shouldn't be fewer of us diving next year this time.

[deepairmike]

I always carry all my bailout. I would not dive with someone that uses the "team" system.

[Bobby]

Just been reading my NACD magazine. Joe Citelli wrote the following (brackets are fill-ins for clarity):

"If (your instructor) advocates (team bailout) as the only way to dive, run. If he thinks it's insanity, run even quicker.... an instructor must recognize that a CCR in a cave is primarily a tool for exploration and most exploration is not feasible without incorporating at least some team bailout into the plan".

So... what's the middle ground and why? How much bailout gas for 2 people? How much for 3? 4?

IMHO the first and most important question is how much BO for "1" person? I personally carry 3X my normal OC SAC of bottom gas and 2X for my deco gas. Some have looked at me sideways when I say this but I have had situations where it was thin getting out when it went south. I dive OC as much as CCR and have a solid average for what I breath on a normal dive. When it all goes south getting into the reserves happens fast.

Now when I have OC divers in my team I carry 3X of what "I" will need to get out and split it between two cylinders minimum. One cylinder "should" take care of the OC teammate and the other "should" get me out if it all goes really bad. My rig does requires some BO as it is my Dil as well so giving up both is not really in the cards. I change cylinder size depending on the planned dive.

When it comes to 3 or more I don't add any gas as I only plan to help one other. If it goes that bad then I will be saving Dr. X and then myself, period!

Anyone have any rational approach to this, or are we all still just making this stuff up as we go along?

Well yes I have made it up as I have went along. As far as team BO goes I have not had a situation where I have had to dive with someone that insisted on it. I have had a number of people that I questioned their BO amounts and figured that I might need to offer some BO if they had a bad day. I keep the same reserves for CCR teammates as I do for OC which comes out the same as what I carry for myself. I have not pushed as far with CCR teammates that didn't carry the same amounts of reserve that I do.

Is there an agrred upon agency rule, and if so, does it have a rational basis?

I have not a clue.

Just interested. What do people do? Personally I make damn sure that I'm getting out regardless of the others... but I rarely have "others" with me, so it's a moot point. I really don't get why exploration doesn't allow proper setup, this is just an issue of how many setup dives people are willing to do and I don't beleive that laziness should be a basis for gas planning.

I dive with "others" regularly. I believe that we carry enough gas to handle most any situation. I also carry two BO options on every CCR dive regardless of the type of dive, I don't care if it is a shallow reef. The WKPP has a solid safety record because they have never cut short their BO options. Having ample gas reserves and supplies for when it goes wrong has not hurt anyone, that I know of.

What I have seen, is people bolt when under stress. I have seen people flat out leave their buddy when they had a problem and this has happened on technical dives. I have been bent twice from other people (not in my team) running out of gas and one of the situations damn near killed me. I have had a diver from a different boat on a recreational dive put me in a bad spot when I only carried one BO and he hit me with a real OOA with a deco obligation. I want to be diving when I am as old as Forrest so I tend to prepare for more than what I think I need to.

Bobby

[aainslie]

Thanks everyone for your replies so far. Sorry I got the journal wrong - it was indeed NSS CDS!

Bobby, I think I agree with your points. It's shocking how much bailout one needs when the proverbial hits the fan.

I really find myself struggling to agree with the article until teams get big. And I just don't see why exploration is an excuse to go light on bailout.

Obviously there are some ways to simplify things if there are multiple teams. Then clearly one can stash one set of bailout that could work for all teams, as only one is in the water at a time.

At the very least, I would say that if there are two divers there should be enough gas to get two out. If there are three or more, perhaps one can start economising at that point.

[jcook]

I carry enough to get me and my buddy (when I dive with one) out of a cave from the furthest point of penetration and then some. It seems to me most people who rely on team bailout don't take into account the amount of gas they will actually use in an emergency and if you get separated under duress, you're screwed. I know my SAC/RMV basically triples if not more, so I carry enough for me (factored in is an ungodly high rate) plus my 1/2 for emergencies and usually a bit more. I am going off 2/3 turn pressure, since the OC dive starts when I bail off the loop.

I was taught dive team bailout. I cannot support what I was taught, it may work for my instructor. I do not doubt his knowledge or skill, but it is just not something that works for me. Just my 2 cents.

[Bobby]

At the very least, I would say that if there are two divers there should be enough gas to get two out. If there are three or more, perhaps one can start economising at that point.

AA,
Yep we are on the same page when it comes to figuring how much extra is needed when it all goes bad to get one out.

As to needing less gas with more team members I don't agree. In all honesty there is not enough data to have solid analysis. What little data there is though seems to point towards increased team size leads to required reserves actually going up. I personally never dive in teams larger than three without subdividing the teams. When in a team of three I will pad the turn point a good bit. Look at sociological normal's such as negotiation. When dealing one on one reaching an agreement follows a bell curve (both sides having equity). Throw in a three way negotiation and reaching agreement is statistically remote. Now throw on the stress of having a life and death situation, an event that has gone bad, and human desire to survive. To me that adds up to needing a good amount of reserves and solid teammates!

Bobby

[Attchoum]

I am in a different situation from you guys. The cave I dove are average of 40-70 feet. Even when I try hard I do not get close to deco. I normally fill with 32 just to be sure.

I believe in a two tanks bailout configuration. As 40 are not really available in Mexico, I bought only 80. As I always carry two, my minimum bailout is 160 ft cube of nitrox 32. With that on, I allow myself to reach a hours on radial penetration (bailout range) I know from OC experience that I can get out of most case with only one of my tank, the other is only backup.

When I dive in a team, I will modify our range according to what they carry and how they plan to use it. If they are strong believer of team bailout and only carry one tank, I will reduce my penetration. Most of the time, I will take a cenote where there's emergency exit along the way.

I did not read the article but I definitely don't agree with rebreather exclusive to exploration. A rebreather is a different configuration that can be chosen for multiple reason: comfort, reducing noise, reducing time pressure, increased deco, ... To limit it to exploration only is in my opinion cutting so many beautiful aspect of a rebreather.

[apitkin]

Twice as much as I think I need to exit, plus deco gas. The margin on the deco gas is variable. If solo, or a more challenging cave configuration (e.g. restrictions, low visibility), then I'll take extra for both.

Most of my accomplices do the same. We never rely on each other's bailout gas, but it just adds an extra safety margin.

With exploration sometimes you can get further than you expect and it's tempting to push bailout reserves when there is going cave in front of you. Experience probably comes in useful at that point.

Andy