DR cave safety problem

[Greenwood_60]

How about creating a website to post their names, shops, locations, phones, etc.. anything someone may use to get additional info about them. The only way they will stop is if they are not making money on it, so drive their business away. I'm sure it would be easy to get a ton of shops to add links to their sites, and get a real solid pagerank real quick.

[phillip1]

that is a great idea, the Caribbean regional manager at PADI has told us that they will be sending out an email in the next 2-3 weeks to all dive shops and instructors in the DR informing them they know this is going on and that if anyone files a complaint they will get in trouble and that all DR cave divers will be on the lookout. If this is true it would be a really big help lets see.

[Line Squirrel]

Am I the only one thinking when these O/W divers make it back from these guided dives, and let's face it, most of them DO make it back, that signs with verbage such as:

YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE DIVING PAST THIS POINT

And

WILL PROBABLY GET YOU KILLED.

They’re just going to think they are a bunch of <in my best Steve Martin impersonation> wild and crazy divers?

I'm not advocating these types of dives, no...not ever... not even a little, but when you claim almost certain death and the overwhelming majority of divers exit...

[JMB2262]

that is a great idea, the Caribbean regional manager at PADI has told us that they will be sending out an email in the next 2-3 weeks to all dive shops and instructors in the DR informing them they know this is going on and that if anyone files a complaint they will get in trouble and that all DR cave divers will be on the lookout. If this is true it would be a really big help lets see.

Maybe PADI is the most prevalent agency down there and that is why people are bashing them, and feel the need to place their agency on the sign. So I called PADI headquarters and asked if I was an OW instructor and did this what would happen to me as an instructor. The short and sweet is PADI would do a Quality Management investigation and if I was found "guilty", they would take some form of action against me (From suspension to expulsion). They said it is a clear Standards violation and they offer no courses in which a Open Water Student can enter an overhead environment.

This argument about ABC agency bashing is always the same. Is it the agency or the instructors and the dive shops they work for. I think it is the later. I hope you all in the DR will report these irresponsible people who take unsuspecting clients/students into these caves. It is just plain scary. BTW, I love the idea of the sign.

Matt

[phillip1]

I think it is time for PADI to step up and stop dive shops who use the PADI name to mislead clients into thinking they are a safe operation operating within establish PADI and industry standards..

On another note we asked ALL training agencies in november for help in this matter and to endorse a letter that we would then give out to all LDS in the DR outlining the dangers of untrained cave diving and the limitations of cavern diving and including every respective training agencies safety guidelines for cavern diving etc.. I spent a month and a half trying to even get a response from them, I did get some correspondence (thanks to Sandy Robinson who really did try to get things moving, thanks Sandy) from the NACD but in the end they did nothing at all.

Of all the training agencies the only one that actually helped and endorsed our letter was the NSS/CDS, every single other agency either did not answer any emails or phone calls even though I sent them and followed up and then sent them again or kept delaying over and over for this reason and that reason and in the end did zero to help us out when all we needed was an endorsement to make our letter to the LDS more credible in the hopes of making a big impact with the owners of the LDS's and make them realize how dangerous this is.

The reaction from PADI not caring was to be expected but the cave and technical agencies that was a big surprise to us.
I am not going to name the agencies that did zero just like PADI but you can take all cave and technical agencies, subtract the NSS/CDS from that list and there you have it, not one of them did anything at all and all the safety officers knew about the situation and did get the emails and phone calls so no one can plead ignorance.
It makes me laugh inside now when I hear or read all this talk about safety this and safety that from these agencies and they did not even lift a finger to help a legitimate and very serious safety situation directly involving cave diving and safety and one that would cost zero dollars and maybe five or ten minutes of someone's time.

Maybe all the agencies did not think this was a problem worthy of help, maybe they did not know who we were and did not trust us, "the DR were is that? they have caves there? really, I thought they only had baseball and guns", who knows to me it seem like they don't care but I will give them all "Le Benefice Du Doute" as they say in France.

A big thank you to the NSS/CDS, they really helped us out big time and endorsed our letter and even sent they're own on NSS/CDS letter head, that was a major help.

I apologize if I seem a bit pissed off but I cannot understand why no one seems to really care, cave diving agencies included.

As for the PADI thing the reason why it is being "bashed" is that 100% of theses instructors and LDS's are PADI dive centers taking the OW clients way into the cave, so I think it is a PADI problem and that the LDS's are misusing the PADI name and are abusing the trust that people have that PADI is a safe franchise.
if PADI does step up and I hope they do, I think we could really prevent a tragic accident which at this point is only a matter of time.

[BecKave]

Phillip, I understand what your saying and saw it happen when I was there in February. We saw 2 groups of 10 open water divers and one guide per group just disappear into the caves. I couldn't help but think that accidents like this happened in Mexico years ago. I hope that no one has to get hurt to show these guides that this is dangerous and that they shouldn't be taking open water divers on cave dives. Good luck and thank you for your efforts.

[Greenwood_60]

You should bring this up on ScubaBoard. This is an issue that needs to be brought to the attention of the general OW community, even more than the Cave Diving community.

I would like to hear the other side of the story... IMHO, this is EXACTLY the sort of issue the CDS and NACD should be addressing. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but out of all the training agencies those were the only ones that I felt held safety above the bottom line. Good job CDS........ NACD?

Mods, if I am out of line, please feel free to delete my post.

[phillip1]

IMHO all training agencies should be united in promoting safety, especially all the tech agencies. I think that the DR is how Mexico was in the early days of cave diving, exploration wise but also untrained cave diving wise too. There is absolutely NO safety regulations of any kind, by that I mean in the tourist areas such as Bayahibe, Medio Ambiente, tourism and the hotel association are managing the park access and the caves, yet they could not care less about the issue, they know this is going on, we informed many many times, had meetings, sent out letters etc.. and there was zero response.
A small example of what goes on on a dailly basis and how the authorities here do not care: an insane russian DM called Andre who regularly signs in at the park office actually took OW clients in La Jeringa a few months ago, the same Andre took 8 people in El Chicho on a 900ft penetration to the air pocket, a dive that is done by all Bayahibe dive shops almost every day (this is just one example of what goes on on a daily basis).
All theses dive shops, instructors and "guides" sign in at the park office, pay the par fee and then off to dive, the park office knows this but could not care less.
Even some full cave instructors are doing the same, they are taking OW clients who have zero training on 900ft penetrations and they all think this is ok!

It took a few tragic accidents in Mexico before people realized that something had to be done about safety.

The problem in the DR is not OW divers on they're own time diving without training and getting killed in caves, the problem in the DR is 100% LDS and instructors misleading OW clients who have absolutely no idea how dangerous cave diving is, this is a training agency problem and something could be done if there was really a will to help (which only the NSS/CDS has shown so far). Maybe PADI will do what they said and send out a communication to all the LDS and instructors here, that would be awesome and might help prevent this, in the meantime....

In the DR it is going to take either a tragic accident or all the training agencies uniting and helping out all we need is an endorsement of our letter to the dive shops which is pasted below, we have given this out already twice but it would maybe make a big impact if all the training agencies endorsed it, instead of just one..


Domincan Republic Speleological Society

An Open Letter to Dive Shops and Training Centers


It has come to our attention that some dive centers and schools who are leading guided dives with clients to some of the following caves Manatial d’El Chicho in Bayahibe, Cueva Taina in Santo Domingo, Hoyo de Floro in Macao, have been exceeding recognized and well established recreational and cavern dive limits.

All certification agencies worldwide are very clear on the differences between Cavern Diving and Cave Diving, who is qualified to lead and teach Cavern and Cave Diving, and the prerequisites for participation in such tours and training.

Cavern Diving limits are:
1. Daylight and free ascent zone of cavern
2. 40 Meters/130 ft. linear distance from surface. Some orgs say 60 Meters/200 ft.
3. Maximum depth not to exceed 21 Meters/70 ft. Some orgs say 30 Meters/100 ft.
In addition, the cavern tour leader is to have at least Divemaster and full cave certifications and be wearing full cave gear. Further, all tour participants are to carry equipment for a cavern dive, which includes reels and lights. Finally, the dive team must deploy a reel from the exit providing a continuous guideline to follow in case visibility is accidently lost allowing all divers to exit the cave safely.

It is of the utmost importance that you understand that:

NO AMOUNT OF PREVIOUS OPENWATER DIVING EXPERIENCE OR TRAINING CAN ADEQUATELY PREPARE YOU FOR CAVE DIVING.

We also would like to point out that clients who sign up for a guided cave dive are assuming that it is safe to do so and that the guide is adequately trained and qualified to guide the dive. This is not always the case and this practice is far from safe!!!

Diving past the day light zone or 40 meters from the exit, with no formal Cave Diving training and Cave Diving equipment is extremely dangerous and it is only a matter of time before someone dies.

Our purpose is not to assign blame. Rather, shed some light on and provide information about the dangers of Cave Diving without proper training and equipment. There have been of over 500 deaths in caves, almost all of which were untrained divers in caves exactly like the ones you take clients to. We have attached a few typical cave diving accident reports for you to read.

In all cave diving areas of the world there are warning signs such as the one printed on the following page. These signs are placed in an appropriate location in the cavern zone and before the cave zone to warn untrained divers of the dangers of Cave Diving. To help avoid any unnecessary deaths and accidents in the island’s caves, we have installed warning signs in all caves, diving past these signs is not safe and is a full cave dive that requires full cave traing and specialized cave diving equipement.

This is a recommendation. If after reading this letter you choose to ignore the potential dangers involved in Cave Diving, and you still intend to dive past the limit, please do so on your own time; do not bring clients with you. They are putting all they’re trust and they’re lives in your hands, they trust that you are following established industry safety standards, and yet by taking these clients past the wrning signs and into the cave zone you are violating every single established safety standard.
Your clients do not know how dangerous untrained cave diving is, DO NOT MISLEAD THEM AND GET THEM KILLED. We urge you to take this warning seriously; with the current situation it is only a matter of time before someone dies in these caves, let it not be you or one of you customer.

Thank you

[ssmdive]

The fact thatno one has died shows this not to really be a problem. You could say that we ate trying to prevent deaths... But that is a slippery slope since good intended people think we should not be allowed to dive in caves since some of us will die.

Also, putting a sign up with wording like that will do nothing. It will only make the students feel more special and like they did something that would have killed most people. And since you said they would die and they didnt... Well, maybe next time they will not take the guide since it was so 'easy'

[phillip1]

2 people died in Laguna Pepe and that cave has been closed ever since, these idiotic LDS and instructors are going to get someone killed and the caves closed, so any deterrent IMO is a least worth a try and at worst is better than nothing.
The fact that no one has died shows how lucky people have been so far and that no event (free flow, siltout etc..) has occurred yet on any of theses dives.
In Mexico there are about 15000 cavern dives/year with so far zero accidents (since the past few years), without organization and safety regulations there would be many many deaths there.
In the DR there are way less cavern dives obviously, but it is all with "guides" and instructors all exceeding the cavern zone and doing full cave dives every time.

People on they're own time in the DR never go cave diving without training, it does not happen here at all that is not the problem, the problem is that people get mislead by LDS's and taken on full cave dives without ever even knowing it was dangerous or that you need training (were the signs might help).