DR cave safety problem

[sskasser]

How many OW divers have died following these guides on these types of dives?

[matt_w]

How many OW divers have died following these guides on these types of dives?

I have no idea, but I am not sure that it really matters. Do you believe open water divers without any surface prep work should dive in a cave at all, and particularly without a certified cave instructor?

[skip]

the current sign does not work. the new one will get a few smiles and be just as promptly ignored. you have to confront the instructors directly, in person, in their face. You can be diplomatic, let's go have a few beers. try to gain insight into who they are, what their teaching philosophy is. don't come off as caring at all about their cave diving activities. when you find inconsistency in their philosophy of teaching and their actual practice point it out to them. those who change behavior are those who are shown their own logical inconsistencies in a friendly and slightly inebriated manner. Maybe take along a safety brochure or dvd's with safety videos (NACD and NSS/CDS websites for downloads) to give to him/her. Offer to train them for a reduced rate. nothing like training to convince a person of the dangers.

Obnoxious threatening signs become souvineers. Trophy items. Badges of Courage. I've had little desire to dive your island, but if you put in the sign it sure would be cool to come take it and hang it on the wall in my scuba room! maybe you'd sell copies of it online and save me the trip?

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[skip]

How many OW divers have died following these guides on these types of dives?

earlier posts show that none have, but it's only recently become so widespread. the fear is that it will happen any day now. prevention before it kills people, rather than wait until after X number of deaths.

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[Gary]

IF YOU ARE NOT FULL CAVE TRAINED YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE DIVING PAST THIS POINT

I support your enthusiasm.

But don't you think "YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE" is a bit of an exageration?

(At least it is an exageration to imply that it is related to the dive - it is true that eventually everyone will "probably die" regardless of whether they go into the cave or not. )

[phillip1]

I think that if you catch someone's attention and they choose to not dive past the sign it is well worth the exaggeration or whatever you put on the sign.
The problem in the DR is NOT OW divers on they're own time deciding to go pas the cavern zone, it is 100% unsuspecting OW clients that are being mislead by irresponsible dive shops and instructors and taken on full cave penetrations of over 900feet, IMO this is murder.
The new signs will be aimed at those unsuspecting OW clients who hopefully may think twice about going on to dive past the signs.
I think the warning signs should scare people off not be diplomatic or even too informative, I mean Danger Landmines (you will probably die) with a skull is a good eye opener, the current warning signs worldwide are a bit too "nice" IMHO, the Stop we care and the grim reaper they are all a bit to diplomatic and not very threatening really. In Mexico I like the Peligro with a skull sign the best it actually looks really dangerous to go past that sign, the other ones are a lot less threatening.
As for talking to dive shops and instructors we have been doing that for 3 years now, we have been diplomatic and very informative explaining with a letter all the dangers etc.. it ALL fell on def ears and now we will be changing the signs to much more threatening ones and we will also be informing all dive centers and instructors that from now on if we (cave divers) witness any of this untrained OW cave diving we will immediately file formal complaints with PADI.
This may or may not deter irresponsible LDS and instructors form doing this but is is so out of control here that everything is worth a try.

As for accidents in the DR there was a double fatality about 8-9 years ago at Laguna Pepe in which an OW PADI instructor took 2 OW clients well into the cave and they both died, the instructor made it out alive I am not sure what was done to him after this accident but the cave has been closed every since.

[cavermatt]

I have not followed any of the threads about this, but here is an idea if it has not been considered already.

Why don't you, or some other cave diver the OW instructors do not know, sign up for one of these classes. When they take you to your OW checkout cave dive you rendezvous with a waiting diver in the cave, you grab a stage or two, leave the OW gear on the bottom and disappear. This will scare the crap out of the OW instructor (if they notice...) and maybe they will learn their lesson.

Isn't the DR surrounded by OW?...

[Greenwood_60]

...you grab a stage or two, leave the OW gear on the bottom and disappear...

yeah, but what happens when the instructor freaks and becomes the real fatality? I still say snipers takes care of the problem quick! Anyone around here know anything 'bout guns?

[gasdiver]

Phillip,
Why don't you get a camera and take some pictures of the instructor(s) at the dive site, on the surface. Then follow them into the cave and take photo's as they swim past the sign and further back. Send these photo's to PADI or whomever needs proof that this is happening. You might want to have a buddy or two with you in case they get really pissed off and try to kick your butt...

[crazyduck]

Game camera mounted to the wall or ceiling. Then you have time and pictures and turn them into the rangers. Just place the camera so it captures them and the students.
Sad state of affairs