Vetting buddies

[amphipod06]

As long as they have a cave card I still believe, in the stated circumstances, that the risk is very low. Give them a chance and stay away from the elitist attitudes.

Sorry, no go for me. You would actually be undertaking a "trust me" dive. We (buddy and I) learned the hard way, took some random cave diver dude (who showed up at DO w/o a buddy) we did not know from Adam to dive Cow on the word of a friend (who had not actually dived with said individual, only knew him as a "certified cave diver"). To make a long story short the guy just called the dive on his own without telling the rest of the team (us) and bailed, we noticed right after dropping out of the restriction and thought he was still in the restriction!! yikes! we figured out he was not there and had bailed after checking and basically ruining a perfectly nice dive... So no, never again, thank you.

Like Brian said, if I do not know you or one of my regular buddies (who are VERY few) does not know you, I either do not dive with you or wait until we get to know each other better and maybe a bunny dive or two.....

Dive safe,

Celia

PS and no, I would not get offended at someone asking who trained me or who I dive with... it's all part of the "interview"...

[Maureen]

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I know of more that one person who has a cave certification that I won't dive with. The card is not a guarantee of acceptable skill levels. Ideally I'd like to have the person vouched for by someone I trust. If that's not possible then we start with a dive that is pretty simple (that I would do alone) and see how that goes. But I don't care what kind of certification cards you put on the table. If I don't know you, and no one I know knows you, then we're starting with a "get acquainted" dive, which may or may not be in a cave.

Brian

Uhh, isn't that kind of what I already said? I did not say just cause you had a cert card I think you are the world's best diver. I said, perhaps not clearly enough, that I would give them a chance on an easy dive on mainline. I am also somewhat perturbed by the posters who seem to be saying that instructors are passing people who do not have the basic skills to keep themselves alive on a simple dive.

[Benthic]

<snip>
I am also somewhat perturbed by the posters who seem to be saying that instructors are passing people who do not have the basic skills to keep themselves alive on a simple dive.

(Emphasis mine)

They are. I'm not saying it's commonplace--but it happens. I have personally seen the evidence of it.

I suppose I could have been more clear in what I said as well. As I mentioned, if I don't know you and you're not vouched for by someone I trust we're doing a "get acquainted" dive. What I didn't say is that that happens after some "get to know you" conversation which is also an interview of sorts. It's possible that we may never make it to the "get acquainted" dive because during the interview either I learned things them that I don't like, or they learned things about me that they didn't like. I've had it happen both ways. And it's not always about skill or lack thereof. Sometimes it's about attitudes that I consider unsafe, or differences of opinion on equipment configuration.

Brian

[WJH]

. . . or differences of opinion on equipment configuration.

Brian

I was once vetted out by a potential buddy who moved to our area because I have a D-ring on my right hip and use it! Seriously. He could only dive with others who were configured EXACTLY as he was. LOL. I have mainly turned down buddies for a first dive because they wanted to plan a dive that was more involved or complicated than I was willing to do with them before having some diving experience with them.

WJH

[Sludge]

He could only dive with others who were configured EXACTLY as he was.

Send him my way. When he sees my rig he's liable to have heart failure.

[LCF]

If I don't know you, and no one I know knows you, then we're starting with a "get acquainted" dive, which may or may not be in a cave.

Well, I'm personally grateful that your wife is more liberal!

[amphipod06]

Well, I'm personally grateful that your wife is more liberal!

ahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhaa, that is truly funny Lynne!

Dive safe,

Celia

[LCF]

Well, Heather went in a cave with me . . . she was a brave woman.

[Gary]

for the purposes of this discussion I think that doing a recreational main line cave dive with a certified cave diver is probably less risk than getting in a car and driving with someone new...As long as they have a cave card I still believe, in the stated circumstances, that the risk is very low. Give them a chance and stay away from the elitist attitudes.

I give anybody a chance but I still consider that I'm far safer on a solo dive than getting in the water with a diver I don't know.

I when I get in the water with a buddy I have taken on a significant responsibility for them getting out of the cave alive and safe. I don't know what the state of their equipment repair and maintenance is, I don't know if another dive team is going to trash the cave and how this diver may react to whatever happens on the dive.

If that diver is diving a manifold *I* am that diver's back up air supply.

Even if they have redundant gear and are a competent diver I'm their as their backup for whatever happens. Communications, confusions, dive plan, separation, siltouts, equipment failures, whatever.

It isn't just a matter of saying: they are a qualified diver so if they get separated they are fully capable of getting themselves out. As their buddy I have committed to see that something like that doesn't happen and that if it does happen that I am there to both try to find them and help them and also to get out and not leave them wondering if I got out OK. Same thing with anything else that happens.

This is a wholly different situation than going driving with another licensed driver. That is two people going driving in separate cars with no care and no responsibility to help each other out in an environment where if they run out of gas and are stuck on the side of the road they could survive for weeks before starving or dying of dehydration, where they will likely find help coming down the road within minutes, and they could probably walk to the nearest service station. Not cave diving. They have about 30-60 minutes and they are in a maze of passages that can be filled with silt. If they have an equipment problem they may have as little as 2 minutes for which I am potentially their only backup.

Having a cave card doesn't mean much. Usually the first question I hear after "are you full cave?" is "who trained you?". People still ask me that (actually that was the first thing my old cave instructor asked my girlfriend once he heard she was full cave). If I know who trained them I can guess at their basic skills and what communications they may be used to, line following procedures (even in the past whether they are taught to lead or follow as donor in a air-share touch contact exit), etc.

Yes a simple main line dive with a new buddy is part of the vetting process but it is hardly a matter of no responsibility. There are caves where a first dive is a lot simpler than others. There are first time dives main-line at Ginnie and there are first time dives at Ruth. Come to think of it a lot of first time, new buddy dives I've been introduced to as part of a cave class really stand out in my mind as the least "main line" dives (Peacock-to-Olsen via the cross over, Godzilla-room circuit) but those are decisions of the cave instructor taking responsibility for them (less-so me). Guided dives stand out a lot too. Hart, Dieploder, 40-fathom, etc. Even at Ginnie I can't think of many first-time dives that really seemed "like simple main line dives" other than main-line at Ginnie to the hill-400 jump and back I can't think of any first time buddy dives that didn't concern me for all the reasons above.

[Sox]

I just got my Intro cert in Feb and registered here then to lurk a bit and learn. The first thing that surprised me was the buddy forum. I first thought to myself, these guys are nuts, I dont want an instabuddy on a boat in OW, nevermind in a cave. And as a new cave diver, who the heck would want to buddy with me? I would be holding them back . . . while many live in FL, others travel a great distance and I assume with all the travel time and expense involved, would want the same as me, a safe fun dive. I am fortunate to have taken my class with a trusted buddy and she and I actually joke about what we do on land, "be careful, you are my only cave buddy, lol" We have been very lucky to hook up with 2 experienced mentors we got to know online, which has been great. They knew exactly what they were getting into when they dived with us though

Regarding vetting, I will echo a few others sentiments here that the instructor does count. If I was coming into the area, I would first ask my instructor if he knew of anyone, since he is familiar with both their and my (lack of) skills and take a bit of comfort that I knew the training they received. Not that you could tell from the crappy line I ran this past weekend, but I actually think about not reflecting poorly on my instructor, lol.

The equipment is an interesting aspect of mutual comfort in a cave. Not necessarily a prescribed setup but whether diving anything new, last dives, maintenance and then ease of familiarity for me. I would be more comfortable with someone in a similar setup.

Trust is important to me and I dont know how you vet that one out, although some of the questions mentioned here seem like a good start to at least understanding how someone is thinking. I personally have found a big difference between online words and action though. Anyway, these are things I think about as a newbie. In OW I remembered what it was like to not have any buddies as a new diver so as I gained experience, I always volunteered to dive with new people. Now that I am on the other end of the spectrum again, it it good to see that others here share the same sentiment