Ginnie Springs

[Benthic]

The "fee simple, absolute" property owner, in FL, owns the corpus that the groundwater runs through, regardless of mineral rights, however they do not own the water (or the void the water runs through, if any; e.g. karst passageways). The property owner has reasonable consumptive use rights to the water whether on or under the surface of the property. ALL water, in FL, is held in the public trust by the state. That includes the water in the Devil's System or even in your swimming pool. There have been cases where the need for water was such that the state allowed the water districts to enter private property and take the water from ponds and pools (even cutting down fences and gates to get to it).

That's very interesting information. Are you, by any chance, able to cite any Florida Statute, ordinances or agency policies that reflect the fact that the State asserts ownership of all water supplies? I think that's a reference that would be nice to have handy (shotguns not withstanding).

Brian

[Sludge]

I think GSO is making a mistake by not approaching it from the other direction: you CANNOT access the cave from their property; you have to leave their property and enter the Santa Fe River before you can enter the cave.

"Your Honor, our company holds no liability for the diving accident, because the deceased was in perfect health when he left our property under his own power, swam in the river, and then entered the cave via the Devil's Ear opening."

[jcr]

Here's some good background information regarding Florida's Public Trust Doctrine.

http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/JN/...256B110050FFB7

[sdenney]

That's very interesting information. Are you, by any chance, able to cite any Florida Statute, ordinances or agency policies that reflect the fact that the State asserts ownership of all water supplies? I think that's a reference that would be nice to have handy (shotguns not withstanding).

Brian

I have it in my old cadastral survey and ag law notes. I'll be taking my fundamentals of survey exam tomorrow, but I'll try to dig up the info Sunday.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

There's precidence already for spring runs being navigable waterways. Alachua County ruled in the favor of the canoers entering at Poe(or Blue, can't remember which off the top of my head) via the river and accessing the spring via its run.

GSO can't keep you out of the cave if you get there by river.

[Jim Wyatt]

GSO can't keep you out of the cave if you get there by river.

Nor do I think they'd even want to.

[KarsticGator]

The "fee simple, absolute" property owner, in FL, owns the corpus that the groundwater runs through, regardless of mineral rights, however they do not own the water (or the void the water runs through, if any; e.g. karst passageways). The property owner has reasonable consumptive use rights to the water whether on or under the surface of the property. ALL water, in FL, is held in the public trust by the state.

The water can be owned by a utility, hence Consumptive Use Permits. Therefore, If i have a 1 MGD permit, I essentially own 1 MGD of water, pumped from my well. However, there are many cases regarding JEA and Vulcan (formally FL Rock) over the groundwater drawdown in NE FL. The laws in the state will change over time, as water becomes more scarce and valuable.

And there are mineral rights in Florida. I know someone said differently, but go as DuPont how much they pay for mineral rights over on Trail Ridge. Those little blacks specks in sand are very valuable. (TiO2)

[Jim Wyatt]

:Yawn:

[sdenney]

The water can be owned by a utility, hence Consumptive Use Permits. Therefore, If i have a 1 MGD permit, I essentially own 1 MGD of water, pumped from my well. However, there are many cases regarding JEA and Vulcan (formally FL Rock) over the groundwater drawdown in NE FL. The laws in the state will change over time, as water becomes more scarce and valuable.

And there are mineral rights in Florida. I know someone said differently, but go as DuPont how much they pay for mineral rights over on Trail Ridge. Those little blacks specks in sand are very valuable. (TiO2)

The permits issued to private parties do not convey ownership over the water, they merely convey reasonable consumptive use for the purposes of commerce in the public good (commerce IS in the public good). As for mineral rights, YES there are mineral rights in FL, however water is NOT a mineral right. Mineral rights are tangible real property which does not change appreciably in time with respect to the relative location of the real property (gold, copper, rare-earth metals, oil, salt, etc.) Groundwater moves in and out with respect to real property with change of epoch (within a reasonable time interval).

[allen]

I agree with jj1987 that a quarrel with GSO would be bad for all parties. Ginnie Springs Outdoors has done pretty well in balancing the wants of divers and the wants of tubers. I have watched the "Cave Nazi" shoo away people whose obvious lack of training would have made their adventure a suicide. Without him there would be one fatality a week in the Devil's System. This would lead to a public outcry to ban cave diving altogether. (Queen Victoria asked Parliament to ban mountain climbing after Lord Douglas died on the Matterhorn.)
I cannot imagine access to Jenny Spring Cave being granted in summer. It might be possible in mid-winter, but it is certainly not something worth fighting over.