Ginnie Springs

[jj1987]

GSO doesn't own the cave system either.

I'm not so sure about that....it's directly under their property. There have been cases in the "TAG" area where caves have been fenced off by landowners under their property lines and courts stood behind them.

Some battles are nice to win, but too risky to fight. IMO it would be terrible to give up a training cave like Devils is over an insignificant cave like Ginnie, because it would migrate the training damage elsewhere. Out of the dozens of people I've heard talk about "I'll just take a boat there", I know maybe two who have actually done it.

If anyone can cite FL law on this, I'd love to hear it...but I can't find anything.

[Jim Wyatt]

GSO doesn't own the cave system either.

If you dig down 50 feet on your property and find gold...who owns it. If you find dirt who owns it?

[FW]

If you dig down 50 feet on your property and find gold...who owns it. If you find dirt who owns it?

Depends on the state. Some states have what is known as "Mineral Rights", and it is possible to buy land with/without "Mineral Rights". I am curious to know what the FL law is.

[Benthic]

Florida Law does allow for mineral rights. This article on eHow.com gives a brief explanation of how they work and cites some references in Florida Statutes. In looking briefly at the statutes, it would appear the article is on target (although I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong).

The short version is that it is possible that GSO owns only the surface land, but unlikely. One would have to look up the records for the real estate transaction where GSO purchased the land and determine if transaction was "fee simple" or not. It is, however, possible that the State reserved mineral rights to the land if the property was purchased directly from the State prior to 1986 and/or in a parcel larger than 20 acres. I don't know the history of GSO well enough to answer those questions off the top of my head.

Brian

[FW]

The Wray's bought the land prior to 1976.

Florida Law does allow for mineral rights. This article on eHow.com gives a brief explanation of how they work and cites some references in Florida Statutes. In looking briefly at the statutes, it would appear the article is on target (although I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong).

The short version is that it is possible that GSO owns only the surface land, but unlikely. One would have to look up the records for the real estate transaction where GSO purchased the land and determine if transaction was "fee simple" or not. It is, however, possible that the State reserved mineral rights to the land if the property was purchased directly from the State prior to 1986 and/or in a parcel larger than 20 acres. I don't know the history of GSO well enough to answer those questions off the top of my head.

Brian

[Benthic]

But did they buy it directly from the State, or from another private owner?

I dug around a bit on the Gilchrist County Property Appraiser's web site, and I was able to find the parcel. But there is no sales information recorded for that particular parcel so I can't see the legal instrument used to execute the transaction. I suspect that the only way to find out for sure if this was a "fee simple" transaction would be to physically go to the Property Appraiser's office and look at the records.

However, as I said before, this was mostly likely a fee simple transaction. If so, GSO owns both the surface and subsurface land.

Brian

[Greenwood_60]

http://www.floridacaves.com/devilcave.JPG

how much of the system is under GSO land?

[Benthic]

Well, the river is the edge of Gilchrist County. So it appears, from that map, that most of the system is under the county to the north (Columbia?). So I was busy looking at the property records for the wrong county.

Edit: After looking at the records for Columbia county, I see that the land on the north side of the river is one large parcel. According to the records it's owned by Mark D. Wray. So it would be my guess that the answer to Greenwood_60's question is that (for all practical purposes) GSO owns the land that the entire Devil's system is under, with the exception of the portions of the cave that are directly under the Santa Fe river.

Brian

[Line Squirrel]

Depends on the state. Some states have what is known as "Mineral Rights", and it is possible to buy land with/without "Mineral Rights". I am curious to know what the FL law is.

Water is not a mineral, althought the water can carry minerals.

A mineral is defined as a naturally occurring, homogeneous solid, inorganically formed, with a definite chemical composition (or range of compositions), and an ordered atomic arrangement. Water does not pass the test of being a solid so it is not considered a mineral although ice; which is solid, is classified as a mineral as long as it is naturally occurring. Thus ice in a snow bank is a mineral, but ice in an ice cube from a refrigerator is not. The only exception to this rule (there always seem to be one) is that mercury is considered a mineral (more a result of history - mercury was an important alchemical substance).

[Benthic]

Water is not a mineral, althought the water can carry minerals.
<snip>

Well, by that argument then it doesn't matter if the State retained any mineral rights. GSO owns the land...top to bottom, surface and subsurface.

Brian