Exploration lines and arrows

[apitkin]

Few week ago, I went to dive/film in muchachos (video will come soon)
I don't know who explore that system but all line and all arrow are mark. at the beginning of each new line, there a cookies saying the name of the line and the year of exploration. That's the kind of marking that is usefull in my opinion.

Etienne,

It was a group of divers with the Cambrian Foundation. I'm glad you found it helpful. We didn't think of it, we were just copying what Mike Madden and his group did in Nohoch Na Chich.

Looking forward to seeing the video.

Andy

[jlillest]

What happens with arrows and line markers should be a matter of local ethics. Some systems require a lot of work to get permission to even dive the systems, so I only hope that those who come afterward respect the work of those that came before. If anyone has a desire to change lines or markers, I hope that they make a good faith effort to contact the person/group to find out if there is any specific reason why the markers or line in question should be changed.

I've personally used line, arrows and markers for survey and would be very pissed if they got removed before I got a chance to finish using them for why I placed them. That being said, I think there is a reasonable time limit to have a say in what happens to the line and survey stations that you place. If the original exploration team hasn't visited the cave in a certain amount of time (5-10 years) then I think that anyone willing to take it on as a project should be able to take it over.

Hopefully someone involved in the exploration/survey community in Florida can speak to the local ethics there since I'm not there very often.

As for the history of specific markers and line, if the original explorers require recognition they can do so through published articles and by placing original arrows, line and markers in the cave diving museum. Outside of needing arrows and markers for a survey, safety comes first, but for popular systems this is probably best done through some sort of organization (like the line committees I've seen in Florida) so that you don't have everybody re-doing each others work.

-Jon

[Tegg]

Safety First. No matter who laid the line.

[Mauro Bordignon]

Thanks for sharing your opinions, in the end I think everybody agrees that safety is first and respect for the explorer's efforts is also really important, thanks Phillip I hope you enjoyed some of my lines while here!
For my Mexican friends, eheheh no doubt i can always find support among you! I didn't mean to start a fire though, I was mostly curious, I wanted to know what they think about it around the Cave World...
Regarding the right to continue an abandoned exploration of course i agree with that and i don't think you should wait 5 years, the caves are not ours so not pushing a cave that might be going for even only two years is just a pity.
The more we explore the more we increase our knowledge of these caves and everybody that loves them should agree with that. This is what we love, we have access to a secret world where we find freedom, there's enough politics in the real world why should we take it with us when we go have fun?
Jason sometimes it is not giving up, it is just knowing that it is not worth it...
Of course these are my personal opinions, good night! Mauro

[Mauro Bordignon]

Sometimes when you survey what you write on lines helps a lot.

[FW]

If you want a really biased opinion, I developed line arrows solely for safety, not as personal, or "glory" markers. It is very rare that you will ever see my initials on an arrow. The only time I use one is to temporarily mark a jump, then I remove it on the way out. I tend to use cookies for that, even though they were designed by Danny Riordan

I have to agree with Rob, lines, and arrows should be replaced for safety. If there is an on-going survey, then the surveyors should be consulted/advised.

[Jim Wyatt]

Safety First. No matter who laid the line.

Agreed. Safety first no matter what prima donna laid that old line...

Lines degrade and become more likely to break. I remember lots of hoopla a couple of years ago and folks squalling over lines being replaced at Eagles' Nest. Some cried about the loss of history.

If the old arrows can be used, use 'em, if they can't give 'em to Cindy for the museum or chuk 'em in the garbage can along with the old line.

[phillip1]

I agree safety first of course but all things being equal, leave the original arrows in place. I just find it more interesting to dive a cave with the original arrows still in place, I see original arrows (aside from the obvious use) as historical cave diving artifacts.

I find cave diving history fascinating and have read all books and stories on the subject, to me original line arrows are my chance to actually see for myself some of that history, so when I dive a cave with original arrows still in place it adds a touch "historic feeling" to the dive and I find that much cooler than generic line arrows.

[Bobby]

If you want a really biased opinion, I developed line arrows solely for safety, not as personal, or "glory" markers. It is very rare that you will ever see my initials on an arrow. The only time I use one is to temporarily mark a jump, then I remove it on the way out. I tend to use cookies for that, even thought they were designed by Danny Riordan

I have to agree with Rob, lines, and arrows should be replaced for safety. If there is an on-going survey, then the surveyors should be consulted/advised.

Remember the uproar that came after LR reopened and I went in about 6 months later one morning and cleaned out all the glory markers on the T's? For about a month I was worried that I would be shot by someone in NFL.....LOL

Bobby

[FW]

Remember the uproar that came after LR reopened and I went in about 6 months later one morning and cleaned out all the glory markers on the T's? For about a month I was worried that I would be shot by someone in NFL.....LOL

Bobby

When I first posted, complaining about al the glory markers in JB, I said I was going in to pull them. When I got there, they were already gone. Someone beat me to it There was one T that had 14 markers on it