Exploration lines and arrows

[Mauro Bordignon]

Hi guys, this is my first post on the forum, my name is Mauro and i teach Cave Diving in Mexico.
What do you think about original exploration lines and markers ? I mean granted that everything is done properly and safety is respected, should they be considered part of the cave or can anybody change them with no consideration of the explorer efforts?
I know what people think down here in Mexico but i am curious to know the opinion of cave divers in Florida and in other communities in general.
Thanks for reading, Mauro.

[RN]

While it's nice to see original lines, they do get old and start to break down. This presents a danger to divers in those passages. I have replaced lines in systems when they needed to be replaced and when I needed knotted line to conduct a proper survey. I do keep the original markers in place. Safety has to come first, though.

[Mauro Bordignon]

No doubt that breaking arrows, soft arrows that double up with line tension, green covered arrows (algae) and stuff like that need to be replaced. I think that no good arrow should be replaced just for the sake of it.
Regarding not knotted lines nobody has the survey of, i think they do not make much sense, is it exploration when you have no idea where you have been?
Thanks Mauro.

[phillip1]

I think original exploration arrows should not be touched and always be left in place, the original explorers are part of the history of the cave, they are the ones who put all the effort in exploring and mapping the caves for everyone else to then dive and enjoy.
I think unless an arrow is broken. damaged etc.. they should remain in place, if the line needs to be replaced or rerouted it should be done by said explorers when possible and if not the original arrows should be placed on the rerouted new line no matter what.

I find it really cool to see the names of the original explorers, when I look at an original exploration arrow and read the name or what it might say I am looking at a piece of history placed there on the first dive and it makes the whole thing more "genuine" so to speak, than a generic arrow placed there after the fact.

A few people have been on exploration dives with me and were the first to dive a few areas of some caves here, I would not even think to remove those arrows.

In addition to the historical aspect of the cave (which I always find fascinating) It is also a form of respect due to the original explorers whoever they might be, I find it very disrespectful and IMHO totally out of line to jump in a cave you are not exploring, remove arrows and replace them.

I am pretty sure that people who do this sort of thing are jealous and were not part of the original team and use "safety" and "line routing" as a lame excuse for such actions, if a line is laid so unsafe or arrows placed so dangerously that it needs to be replaced then find out who is working the cave and ask them to either do it or permission to do so.

My logic to this? imagine diving a cave and seeing original Sheck Exley or Hassemayer arrows, no matter who the original explorers are famous or not they are part of the history of the cave and should be left in place.

[Squirrel Girl]

I pretty much agree with Rob.

On the one hand, I understand why some folks like to see historic line/arrows, to me it's not that big of a deal. The original explorers should be surveying the cave they find, and with that, they should publish it, and therefore they get "credit."

To me, folks shouldn't go changing line willy nilly in caves that can cause confusion with other frequent visitors. But to me, the line and arrows are "junk" that we introduce in a sort of temporary (in a geologic sense) and so I just don't get that worked up about it.

As Rob stated, safety comes first.

[phillip1]

I agree but no matter what if a line needs to be replaced do it and then reposition the original arrows (if not broken of course), I find it out of line to replace original arrows with blank ones or worse one's with your name on it when you had nothing to do with the original exploration.

Replacing or rerouting lines IMHO gives a person zero rights to place a permanent arrow with they're name on it, maybe a blank one if absolutely necessary but with your name on it no way.

I think safety should not be an excuse to remove arrows and place your own.

I do not get worked up about it but there is 99% of the time always a choice as to removing or leaving original exploration arrows in place and I just think that the correct choice should be to leave the original one's in place.

I would be super pissed off if someone just went into a cave I found, explored and mapped and replaced arrows or added theirs when they had nothing to do with the exploration, in fact I find that sort of behavior downright disrespectful no matter how you look at it.

Obviously safety first but I think that every effort should be made to keep the original arrows in place and not use maintenance etc.. as an excuse to remove arrows, arrows will break here and there but few really need to be replaced.

Maybe in Florida with super strong flow and such they need to be replaced not sure but I seriously doubt it, I heard (might be wrong) that almost none of Sheck's Exley's arrows are still in place at all when he dove explored and mapped a huge amount of caves in Florida, is this theft as souvenirs or people just replacing arrows that could have been left in place on newly replaced line?

All things being equal safety wise would that not be way cooler to see original arrows rather than generic replacement done way after the fact?

[Bobby]

I have many of my lines and arrows replaced over the years, it has never been an issue for me. To be honest I have never paid much attention to what arrow I put in when laying line. I was putting an arrow in a few years ago and after the dive my teammate asked me what the letters meant. I had picked another persons arrow up from another cave and placed it on the line without paying any attention.

The dorf markers in EN were cool to see but with the traffic that system gets now it is better with gold line and plastic arrows. I guess having the experience of diving systems before gold line and good markers is enough for me.

Bobby

[CaveBuddy95]

hi Mauro and welcome to hell..!!
For your first post you did choose the right topic I must say, good for you.

I have an idea why it's being done...simply because he/she/they, can do it without putting safety on the line so to speak and without burning their fingers. Remember when you were a kid playing with matches..?? You had to experience an intense burning sensation instead of listening to your parents...and get burned! IN a way you enjoyed 'not' doing what they told you, just to piss them off. Here, in Mexico, what is happening with the lines and arrows it's the same thing. There is no protocol or law or nobody telling you not to take original arrows, so you feel even better and you know you are going to piss people off. That's your driving force every morning!! Whoever does that is just an adult refusing to get old!!

Sad but true.
It is even more sad when we start not to care anymore. Turning a blind eye does not make it better.

[Sludge]

I don't think any permanent arrow in a cave should have anything written on it except the distance to the exit. I've never pulled an arrow and probably never will, but that's my opinion.

[Attchoum]

What really piss me off is when the new arrow doesn't help us to navigate the cave. I explain:

Take systema chan hol. first time I jumps in chan hol, every arrow was name and mark. By simply swiming on the main line, you can understand where the jump go and where loop can be close. Now if you dive in chan hol all arrow are blank and you have no clue where your going.

Few week ago, I went to dive/film in muchachos (video will come soon)
I don't know who explore that system but all line and all arrow are mark. at the beginning of each new line, there a cookies saying the name of the line and the year of exploration. That's the kind of marking that is usefull in my opinion.

If a arrow is broken, replace is for safety reason, but don't remove the information that was on.

my two cent