This is why the attitude...

[Benderr]

There was a double fatality at Eagles’ Nest a few years ago.....

I may be remembering a different accident, but didn't they find cocaine in one of the diver's systems? If someone's doing a line before diving... ANY diving, then you have to expect that they're going to find a way to get hurt, with or without sage advice.

Some people are just going to kill themselves. Assuming everyone who asks about a scooter is looking to set a penetration record and treating them like a red-headed stepchild will accomplish two things: Jack and $#17. I understand the frustration... to a point, but isn't accomplishing the goal (encouraging divers to dive within their limits) more important than taking that frustration out on the noobs?

[Kevin Carlisle]

I often wonder why some of these people cave dive anyway. Seems all they care about is what is at the EOL and nothing about the rest. Great post Jim.

[Garth]

Cocaine and its metabolites stay in the urine for up to 10-14 days.

I may be remembering a different accident, but didn't they find cocaine in one of the diver's systems? If someone's doing a line before diving... ANY diving, then you have to expect that they're going to find a way to get hurt, with or without sage advice.

Some people are just going to kill themselves. Assuming everyone who asks about a scooter is looking to set a penetration record and treating them like a red-headed stepchild will accomplish two things: Jack and $#17. I understand the frustration... to a point, but isn't accomplishing the goal (encouraging divers to dive within their limits) more important than taking that frustration out on the noobs?

[argyris]

Excellent post Jim!!!!!

[reiterman]

Very good post Jim.

[adam0321]

Just IMO, but a scooter is a tool to accomplish a job, not a tool to create one. The question was worded "how far can this UV26 get me", not I'd like to explore beyond ________, will this tool support it? IMO that's what threw up the red flag.

that might be how it came off but that is not what I was asking. I was using that as a judgment on what kind of condition the scooter is in.

[Kelly Jessop]

Jim-not to be overly morbid but you left out a few accidents and incidents that would reinforce your point. I guess the question we keep asking is why do we keep having to relearn these lessons,over,and over again.....

[adam0321]

thats human nature

[chicken]

So I'll use this example to gripe about one of my pet peeves - please don't take offense:

Rich, why did you quote Jim's whole post? Those of us accessing the CDF on phones have to wait for it to load, and it's totally unnecessary.

Question: How can you tell if a diver has a Apple I-Phone?

Answer: Don't worry about it, they will tell you

[DA Aquamaster]

Just IMO, but a scooter is a tool to accomplish a job, not a tool to create one. The question was worded "how far can this UV26 get me", not I'd like to explore beyond ________, will this tool support it? IMO that's what threw up the red flag.

I agree with your concern about a tool being intended to accomplish a job, not to create one. But it's an issue of semantics that opens the door for people to presume the poster means something he or she may or may not.

We all have goals in diving - that can be read as "I am a goal driven diver intent on doing a pinnacle dive in the minimum possible time inorder to feed by over inflated ego, and virtually guarenteeing that I will not be well qualified for the dive and will possibly get hurt, die or get someone else killed." We all agree that is a bad thing, and most of us have probably all seen people who fall into that category, so we are sensitive to the issue.

On the other hand having a goal in diving may mean you plan on progressively expanding your skills, training, experience and range of diving environments over a long and safe career. Most of us don't have an issue with that.

Now if someone wants to "step up a bit" and buy a UV-26 and asks "how much penetration will it get relative to a Mako?" it could suggest a lack of knowledge about scooter diving in the sense of "I want to do this dive I am not qualified for", or it could mean " I am getting out of a scooter that is too limiting and I'd prefer not to keep upgrading every few years and I want to know what kind of performance I can expect out of it a few years from now when my skills, training and ability has increased."

The problem is that too many of us are willing to jump to the first conclusion - often under the justification of promoting safety - when what we really should be doing first is politely asking some clarifying questions. That does not always happen. And then we often make it worse because once someone starts, the dog piling begins.

The problem with that is not that someone's feelings get hurt, but rather that someone who may have hung around long enough to get good advice from people who they respect (which often depends on those people showing a degree of respect) instead drop off the thread and do it with their limited lack of knowledge or do it to prove a point, salvage their ego etc. So in effect, by being jerks we are helping create the safety situations claim we are trying to avoid.

How we say what we say is often just as important as what we say.