This is why the attitude...

[Jim Wyatt]

There is a lot of what I call “Institutional Memory” on this and other forums, of course there is a lot of “Institutional BS too” The reason you see this attitude, Adam is because of the memory of past events and deaths preceeded by conversations similar to some of the ones we have read here and other forums.

There was a double fatality at Eagles’ Nest a few years ago. One of the men who died there had taken and failed a DPV cave course. His DPV cave instructor advised him to not ride his DPV in a cave until he became better trained and passed the DPV cave class. This man ignored his instructor’s suggestion and perished at Eagles’ Nest while riding his scooter. His death was a direct result of not knowing how to pilot a DPV in a cave and also ignoring other commonly accepted rules of deep diving. The instructor who failed him also did the body recovery and suffered DCS from it. There was more talk of closing EN again.

There was a fatality at Little River a few years back and the victim was certified as an “intro to cave” diver. He was riding his DPV in Little River when he perished. He had made statements that he needed no more training beyond the intro to cave level and that he needed no instructor to teach him anything else about cave or DPV cave diving. His death was a direct result of not knowing how to properly pilot a DPV in a cave.

At Wayne’s World a couple of years ago two men perished who stated that they needed no additional cave diver training. One was certified at the intro to cave level and one had yet to pass a cavern class. They got keys to the property under the pretense of “cleaning up beer cans”, went into the cave and both perished. The legal implications and impact to the cave diving community have yet to be measured.


The impact on all the family members of all 5 above victims is well known. Husbands, fathers and sons died way too early . Wives, children and parents suffered losses that will go with them to their graves.

Many of the people who take the “attitude” you mention remember these events, they recall the pain & suffering family members endured. They recall the days when cave diving was outlawed in Gilchrist County. They recall the front page news from North Florida newspapers that read “KILLER CAVE TAKES ANOTHER”

Perhaps; and I am just spit-balling here, these people don’t have the best “bedside manner” and are unable or unwilling to consider peoples sensibilities. Their message could be written with a little more empathy, they could stroke and smile like a psychologist trying to stop a kid from being self-destructive, but they don’t.

What they are doing is using their “institutional memory” of past events and are feeling and reacting to the frustrations of seeing more people headed down the path of the 5 deaths I described above. There are many more examples.

[Rich]

There is a lot of what I call “Institutional Memory” on this and other forums, of course there is a lot of “Institutional BS too” The reason you see this attitude, Adam is because of the memory of past events and deaths preceeded by conversations similar to some of the ones we have read here and other forums.

There was a double fatality at Eagles’ Nest a few years ago. One of the men who died there had taken and failed a DPV cave course. His DPV cave instructor advised him to not ride his DPV in a cave until he became better trained and passed the DPV cave class. This man ignored his instructor’s suggestion and perished at Eagles’ Nest while riding his scooter. His death was a direct result of not knowing how to pilot a DPV in a cave and also ignoring other commonly accepted rules of deep diving. The instructor who failed him also did the body recovery and suffered DCS from it. There was more talk of closing EN again.

There was a fatality at Little River a few years back and the victim was certified as an “intro to cave” diver. He was riding his DPV in Little River when he perished. He had made statements that he needed no more training beyond the intro to cave level and that he needed no instructor to teach him anything else about cave or DPV cave diving. His death was a direct result of not knowing how to properly pilot a DPV in a cave.

At Wayne’s World a couple of years ago two men perished who stated that they needed no additional cave diver training. One was certified at the intro to cave level and one had yet to pass a cavern class. They got keys to the property under the pretense of “cleaning up beer cans”, went into the cave and both perished. The legal implications and impact to the cave diving community have yet to be measured.


The impact on all the family members of all 5 above victims is well known. Husbands, fathers and sons died way too early . Wives, children and parents suffered losses that will go with them to their graves.

Many of the people who take the “attitude” you mention remember these events, they recall the pain & suffering family members endured. They recall the days when cave diving was outlawed in Gilchrist County. They recall the front page news from North Florida newspapers that read “KILLER CAVE TAKES ANOTHER”

Perhaps; and I am just spit-balling here, these people don’t have the best “bedside manner” and are unable or unwilling to consider peoples sensibilities. Their message could be written with a little more empathy, they could stroke and smile like a psychologist trying to stop a kid from being self-destructive, but they don’t.

What they are doing is using their “institutional memory” of past events and are feeling and reacting to the frustrations of seeing more people headed down the path of the 5 deaths I described above. There are many more examples.

Thanks Jim, eloquently put as always.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[Marc Bryan]

Excellent post. One of the best I remember.

[WJefferis]

I totally understand the meaning in the OP's statement. However, why is it necessary to blast someone who is looking for recomendations on pros and cons of certain DPVs so that they can help to make a more informed decision? Before I spent $3000+ I would try to do as much research and talk to as much people as I could. This is a forum of many experienced cave divers and more novice cavers coming up are looking for advice to help to lead them towards more informed decisions.

When I go to a dive shop of course they are going to tell that this $2,000 light they sell is exactely what I need to dive with. I would rather talk with an instructor/my instructor, and tons of other people who do tons of dives to help steer me towards gear that is robust and holds up to the type of diving I am getting into.

I can absolutely understand getting a snarky reply if I was asking about the best profile/ gas mixes to use at Eagles Nest. I do not however understand why the same reply is necessary for someone who is asking a simple question. Many do not have the luxury of living in cave county and cave dive four times a week. So these types of forums help some to bounce ideas on gear configurations/tweeks and such that happens at many fill stations in cave country to those who are lucky enough to be in the know.

I have alot of respect for divers who have more knowledge and experience than I do. If they allow me to bend their ear for a minute I take advantage of that. If they want to give me their opinion I take it. I think doing that has helped to make me a better diver. I think that many people who have gotten blasted on this forum were simply asking for basic advice only to get snubbed with a reply of "none of your business."

[jj1987]

I totally understand the meaning in the OP's statement. However, why is it necessary to blast someone who is looking for recomendations on pros and cons of certain DPVs so that they can help to make a more informed decision? Before I spent $3000+ I would try to do as much research and talk to as much people as I could. This is a forum of many experienced cave divers and more novice cavers coming up are looking for advice to help to lead them towards more informed decisions.

When I go to a dive shop of course they are going to tell that this $2,000 light they sell is exactely what I need to dive with. I would rather talk with an instructor/my instructor, and tons of other people who do tons of dives to help stear me towards gear that is robust and holds up to the type of diving I am getting into.

I can absolutely understand getting a snarky reply if I was asking about the best profile/ gas mixes to use at Eagles Nest. I do not however understand why the same reply is necessary for someone who is asking a simple question. Many do not have the luxury of living in cave county and cave dive four times a week. So these types of forums help some to bounce ideas on gear configurations/tweeks and such that happens at many fill stations in cave country to those who are lucky enough to be in the know.

I have alot of respect for divers who have more knowledge and experience than I do. If they allow me to bend their ear for a minute I take advantage of that. If they want to give me their opinion I take it. I think doing that has helped to make me a better diver. I think that many people who have gotten blasted on this forum were simply asking for basic advice only to get snubbed with a reply of "none of your business."

Just IMO, but a scooter is a tool to accomplish a job, not a tool to create one. The question was worded "how far can this UV26 get me", not I'd like to explore beyond ________, will this tool support it? IMO that's what threw up the red flag.

[adam0321]

Just IMO, but a scooter is a tool to accomplish a job, not a tool to create one. The question was worded "how far can this UV26 get me", not I'd like to explore beyond ________, will this tool support it? IMO that's what threw up the red flag.

that might be how it came off but that is not what I was asking. I was using that as a judgment on what kind of condition the scooter is in.

[DA Aquamaster]

Just IMO, but a scooter is a tool to accomplish a job, not a tool to create one. The question was worded "how far can this UV26 get me", not I'd like to explore beyond ________, will this tool support it? IMO that's what threw up the red flag.

I agree with your concern about a tool being intended to accomplish a job, not to create one. But it's an issue of semantics that opens the door for people to presume the poster means something he or she may or may not.

We all have goals in diving - that can be read as "I am a goal driven diver intent on doing a pinnacle dive in the minimum possible time inorder to feed by over inflated ego, and virtually guarenteeing that I will not be well qualified for the dive and will possibly get hurt, die or get someone else killed." We all agree that is a bad thing, and most of us have probably all seen people who fall into that category, so we are sensitive to the issue.

On the other hand having a goal in diving may mean you plan on progressively expanding your skills, training, experience and range of diving environments over a long and safe career. Most of us don't have an issue with that.

Now if someone wants to "step up a bit" and buy a UV-26 and asks "how much penetration will it get relative to a Mako?" it could suggest a lack of knowledge about scooter diving in the sense of "I want to do this dive I am not qualified for", or it could mean " I am getting out of a scooter that is too limiting and I'd prefer not to keep upgrading every few years and I want to know what kind of performance I can expect out of it a few years from now when my skills, training and ability has increased."

The problem is that too many of us are willing to jump to the first conclusion - often under the justification of promoting safety - when what we really should be doing first is politely asking some clarifying questions. That does not always happen. And then we often make it worse because once someone starts, the dog piling begins.

The problem with that is not that someone's feelings get hurt, but rather that someone who may have hung around long enough to get good advice from people who they respect (which often depends on those people showing a degree of respect) instead drop off the thread and do it with their limited lack of knowledge or do it to prove a point, salvage their ego etc. So in effect, by being jerks we are helping create the safety situations claim we are trying to avoid.

How we say what we say is often just as important as what we say.

[jj1987]

...Insert above novel here....

If anyone wants a great article about building experience to go to bigger and better dives, I suggest they read "Further from Daylight: Extending the Reach of Cathedral Canyon". It's the best article on progressive cave diving that I've ever read. Written by Todd Leonard for the Spring 2005 Quest magazine. It gives examples of how a (now) well accomplished cave diver worked his way up to a dive that was previously thought "impossible".

[gasdiver]

The problem is that too many of us are willing to jump to the first conclusion - often under the justification of promoting safety - when what we really should be doing first is politely asking some clarifying questions. That does not always happen. And then we often make it worse because once someone starts, the dog piling begins.

How we say what we say is often just as important as what we say.

DA, this is a good point. I recently responded to a thread with a sarcastic response loaded with political innuendo. It was a joke, but I got eaten alive for bringing politics into this forum. My post was deleted and I heard later that the mods were considering a new rule regarding politics on this forum. Talk about dog piling! (Yes, I learned my lesson and won't make anymore political jokes without leading and trailing ...)

I know a number of people who refuse to participate in this and other forums because of this sort of behavior. It's too bad, because these people have a lot of experience and wisdom to offer.

[CGriffing]

Excellent post and well put, Jim!