This is why the attitude...

[RN]

I may be wrong, and feel free to correct me if so, but it almost sounds as if the people beating the drum of safety are implying (extrapolation necessary here :0) that divers of various skill/experience levels are actually starting their dive with an unsafe dive plan. I cannot say I believe that to be true. I think the vast majority of dives start with the plan being viewed and reviewed as "safe". Maybe aggressive or very advanced, but still safe.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. I've seen divers come into town after driving all night long (minimum 12 hours), stop off to sign in at JB and stand there and plan their 2 stage, multiple jump, scooter dive to the back of the cave...all after not cave diving for at least 3 months. While that may be a safe dive for some of us, it's not the best plan under those circumstances. What happened to the shake out dive?

There was an incident in JB recently in which a couple of divers came into town and planned a scooter dive to the back of JB and took their scooters into passages where scooters have no business being. they both almost died. Had it not been for another diver being in the right place at the right time, we would have had 2 dead divers less than 300' from the exit.

There are lots of other examples. None of these divers think their plans were unsafe. While both groups have lived to dive another day, I wonder when their day will come.

What happens next, I cannot say. I am not there. I do believe there is a precipitating incident that occurs that flips the plan or its execution. The world's best/safest plan does not mean crap if execution is the problem.

This goes back to level of experience. The best divers in the world aren't going to survive an incident if they can't mentally handle the situation. When panic is allowed to set in, the result will likely be bad. Experience helps build a tolerance to this and helps keep the panic at bay. It's one thing to be able to handle situations when you know there's someone else there that will probably be able to get you out of it. It's another thing when you must handle it all by yourself. Sometimes that can just become too much and panic takes over.

Shelving any health issues or cave-ins, I think the problem is both diver mindset (too much, too far, too fast--before and during the dive) and in-dive execution of the plan.

I couldn't agree more!

I believe the vast majority of instructors are like RN and do their best to ferret out issues and guide people to find other pursuits or mature their outlook on cave diving...but they cannot go on every dive. They cannot participate in every plan. They and other divers with experience must work on peoples' mindsets, help program them.

Thanks you, and yes, I agree many instructors do this. Unfortunately, there are also some instructors out there that simply hand out cards, though.

I know most people have the ingrained human nature response to listen and adhere to advice from people they respect and admire and trust.

When I go diving, that is the goal...by the way: to go diving. So yes, I am goal oriented. But, sadly, diving Ginnie or Little River again for the upteenth time meets my goal--to get in the water and wash it all away. And if I live longer and can have a beautiful beard because of it, so be it. Fountain of youth, here I come!!

[Bobby]

I may be wrong, and feel free to correct me if so, but it almost sounds as if the people beating the drum of safety are implying (extrapolation necessary here :0) that divers of various skill/experience levels are actually starting their dive with an unsafe dive plan. I cannot say I believe that to be true. I think the vast majority of dives start with the plan being viewed and reviewed as "safe". Maybe aggressive or very advanced, but still safe.

Perception of "SAFE" is different for everyone. I can only speak for myself and my experience. When "pushing the limit" the word "safe" is relative. When planning a dive that is hundreds of feet deep or requires passing a difficult restriction the only safety is in planning for contingencies based on experience. The more extreme the dive the more risk and less safety. One persons perception of reasonable risk can seem like a death wish to another.

I never start a dive believing that I will die, yet I start every dive knowing that I could. Some dives carry more risk and I weigh that against the desire to attempt the task.

When I go diving, that is the goal...by the way: to go diving. So yes, I am goal oriented. But, sadly, diving Ginnie or Little River again for the upteenth time meets my goal--to get in the water and wash it all away. And if I live longer and can have a beautiful beard because of it, so be it. Fountain of youth, here I come!!

Nothing sad about that in any way. Sadly I believe there are many that don't honestly consider what risk they are comfortable with. They let outside influences shape their perception and take on more than they are capable of executing.

[DA Aquamaster]

I may be wrong, and feel free to correct me if so, but it almost sounds as if the people beating the drum of safety are implying (extrapolation necessary here :0) that divers of various skill/experience levels are actually starting their dive with an unsafe dive plan. I cannot say I believe that to be true. I think the vast majority of dives start with the plan being viewed and reviewed as "safe". Maybe aggressive or very advanced, but still safe.

What happens next, I cannot say. I am not there. I do believe there is a precipitating incident that occurs that flips the plan or its execution. The world's best/safest plan does not mean crap if execution is the problem.

I recall reading a report of an explorational dive where the team (who shall remain nameless) broke thirds to make a connection but felt that the goals of the dive and the efforts to set up the dive justified the additional risk. So clearly a decision was made to proceed on a portion of the dive where an (arguably unlikely) failure woudl probably not been surviveable.

Perception of "SAFE" is different for everyone. I can only speak for myself and my experience. When "pushing the limit" the word "safe" is relative. When planning a dive that is hundreds of feet deep or requires passing a difficult restriction the only safety is in planning for contingencies based on experience. The more extreme the dive the more risk and less safety. One persons perception of reasonable risk can seem like a death wish to another.

I never start a dive believing that I will die, yet I start every dive knowing that I could. Some dives carry more risk and I weigh that against the desire to attempt the task.

Records won't often get set by staying within the limits and past a certain point the logistics of diving to X depth or X ft penetration get very daunting, and there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of covering all the possible contingencies. For example, if you are sending divers to depths or distances that start to carry significant risks of their own just to do set up dives for the final push to make it incrementally safer, at some point you have to start balancing the costs and benefits for all involved.

And in terms of extreme depths and deco obligations, it all gets a little fuzzy anyway.

----

The reality is that setting records or recording firsts may require taking more risk than most cave divers would be comfortable with. If the diver succeeds they may gain respect and recognition, but if they fail they just end up dead, or even if they succeed they may still end up permanently disabled. Those are risks the diver needs to be aware of and willing to take after being fuly aware of the potential consequences.

That's entirely different than a "too far too, fast diver" getting in over his or her head and not realizing the risks, or that cave diving is comparatively "easy" where planning, experience and skill are not nearly as important when the dive goes as planned, but become the determinants of life and death when things do not go as planned. That's the seductively "easy" side of cave diving that gets people killed.

[Jim Wyatt]

If the diver succeeds they may gain respect and recognition, but if they fail they just end up dead...

I guess it depends upon how much someone needs to be respected & recognized just how far they will push themselves or the envelope.

[Bobby]

I guess it depends upon how much someone needs to be respected & recognized just how far they will push themselves or the envelope.

Jim I know that this is not your thought process. I do believe IMHO that this is one of the worst reasons to push ones limitations or the envelope.

Bobby

[Benderr]

Records won't often get set by staying within the limits

Something else to consider is that technology will make many "records" insignificant with time.

Do people really care about how far someone swam twenty or thirty years ago? I know I don't, but I do care about how diving was made safer by a handful of people who took a hard look at what was being done wrong and found simple but effective solutions to (mostly) fix those problems.

[Rubis]

I'll preface this by saying that I am a cave diving coward.
I have no interest in doing any type of exploration. The idea just gives me the creeps. If I ever find virgin passage, I'll put my divebuddy in front, so that if the cave collapses, I won't go in there. This is how much it scares me.
However every time I dive a new cave *for me*, I am super excited. Actually I have no desire to dive stuff *I* know already. I find it utterly boring.

So, if I take my unexplained fear and strong self-preserving instinct away, I perfectly understand the need for pushing and exploring. I think explorers push the envelope, exploring is their life. They are willing to take risks, because this is what keeps them alive = why they want to live this life. But some people don't make it. It's part of the risk they know and accept willingly. We need them to go forward and push the limits. If they did not do it, we would be stagnant.

I think the number of people that are willing to do that are very few in the cave diving community.
Most of us are "cave tourists" or just risk adverse people. We just do not play in the same arena IMHO.

[bletso]

Something else to consider is that technology will make many "records" insignificant with time.

Do people really care about how far someone swam twenty or thirty years ago? I know I don't, but I do care about how diving was made safer by a handful of people who took a hard look at what was being done wrong and found simple but effective solutions to (mostly) fix those problems.

No, technology really doesn't take away from past achievements. Some of Sheck's exploits were just astounding in their scope. The new technology just makes different achievements.

Dale

[Marc Bryan]

If anything, it makes past achievements even more impressive. To think Shek swam and laid line over 10,000' is crazy.

[FW]

Yes, at one time, Peacock to Pothole was a record. Imagine doing that with no BCD, 2D-cell flashlights, and double hose regulators. That was done in the '50s by Olsen and Krasle. Sheck was very impressed by John Harper's record setting 1000' penetration.