why the attitude???

[adam0321]

so I am not trying to start a fight simply asking a question. And it is not so much on this site but on others..
why as soon as a new member or anyone that does not have 10,000 posts to there credit get attacked any time they ask a question? We always talk about ow divers in caves not getting training. to be honest with the way I have herd many cave divers lash out at ow divers both at JB and ginnie I would want nothing to do with our community either.

case in point on the forum side anyway
guy post a profile for the oriskany he did on v-planner and asks for advice on his gas choice and deco plan. appears to be very knowlegable about technical diving. just asking someone who as been there about his gas choice

right away comes "care to post your qualifications to even do this dive!"
why should he have to? and who was that memebr to question his quals?

I post a thread asking what to look for in a used scooter
first response."take a scooter class first and never scooter where you havent swam"
I was not asking about how to employ a scooter just what to look for in buying a used one.

all the time I see guys forums get beat up because some one else does not feel that they are up to par to be making the dives they are.

I understand we need to practice safety and look out for one another but I have seen members get tossed to the wolves for asking simple questions. If you were 18 and got a late start in getting you drivers license and asked some one about driving a car and they lashed out with : o its so dangerious, you have to have all this training and all this special equipment and its real hard probaly going to get yourself killed, might as well not even try" how likely would that person be to follow advice. and to be honest when most cave divers are asked innocent questions about cave diving by ow and non divers, they act like they cant be bothered.

It just seems that all to often it becomes a pissing match of
"im a cave diver"
"o yeah Im a full cave diver"
"well I am a an/dp full cave tech diver"
"I have 10 dives in eagles nest listen to me"
"I have 300 dives in eagles nest on eccr"
"bla bla bla, who cares I am a instructor"
'
and to be honest I am starting to think its the more qualified cave divers that are more of a safety problem.

I have herd all these things from "full cave divers" at various caves while gearing up who have all piunded there chest about making hundreds of cave dives.
"naa I know this cave by brail no worries"
"its only JB I only taking one light in"( after his back up failed to fire)
" forget the reel I know where the line is"(not at JB)
" dont worry about the thirds the flow will push us out on our exit"
" sm is not that hard jsut follow me"
"well just use my computer 32% and 34% arent that far apart"
" just use your dry suit as a compensator were only going to kings bypass"
the absolute best I have seeen and herd
" just bought this meg going to try it out in the cave"
"I let my sorb dry all night should be good for another couple hours"
"im pretty sure they were 32%"

and most of these same people I have either herd talk down to other divers or have had them give me s##t about practicing with a scooter in the cavern. before a class

I know this no where near applys to everyone and not even the majority of cave/tech divers, but alot of us put off a very cocky and arrogant vibe to the rest of the diving community.

I guess what I am trying to get at it just because you have this qual or have made that dive or have dove witht hat guy or laid this line nothing gives you the right to talk down to or think you are better then another diver trying to seek information.

[Dsix36]

If you check your PM on "that other board", I gave you a pretty good answer about your scooter question. I did not post it publicly because it was an email sent to ME, from the manufacturer, rather than the world.

[floridabob]

Saw your thread on the other forum. I usually end up wondering why people say half of what they write and what the other things they dont say are. Could be even worse.

In a word why people act they way they do via forums and the internet "anonymity".

I had an occasion to get a phone call from a guy a few years back about a post, can't even remember what the heck it was about now. But he was very polite and it came out in our conversation that he had been diving for about 3 years and was about to hit 200 dives and was not cave trained. Who cares? Except!...this was the very same guy who was vehemently thrashing others about their questions, not decisions, but questions.

I dont talk to people much at dive sites unless I know them. No reason other than that is me. I do, however, see tons of people get on forums and flame each other...the same ones that never speak up about choices they see people make headed diving...choices that may have negative outcomes (not death, just a dive not as good as it could be). They could help, but don't. Then they try to help (bash) people they dont know and cant see. It is not their gracious nature, not by a long shot.

My best advice? Don't post before you use the search functions first. Half the questions are not new.

If you are trying to change the forums, don't waste your energy.

Oh, the same crap happens in other venues, too: Diesel forums, Veggie oil forums, High Def TV forums, Off Road forums,... You get the picture.

Don't think its just divers, cave divers or tech divers. Its not. Its people. Oh, and the fact that they don't often get held to task for their input.

Use the forums as a resource with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Have fun, even when deuches chime in. Enjoy people's courage and their ingorance...much like mine (ignorance, that is)!

Oh, by the way, Cavediver.net needs a spell check!

[Marc Bryan]

I agree with a lot of your post, but disagree with quite a bit as well.

I have every right to ask your quals, if you want my advice. Giving information out freely is great, but you give it to the wrong people, and you have people dying in caves. There are divers who think they need very little training to do advanced dives. I have heard newly minted intro divers make the comment that they have all the training they need. "It can't be that hard to do complex navigation", "a cave is a cave", "I can take you there, I did it once with my (with a qualified buddy)", and it goes on and on.

As long as incidents like the one @ Waynes World continue to happen, you will see several in the community being very guarded as to how much, and to whom they give information.

In the case of your scooter inquiry, why not just ask your instructor. Rob could certainly assist you in that area, even if you are not taking a class. When you ask on here you open yourself up to answers that are inaccurate, dangerous, expensive, wasteful, etc....from people which you have no frame of reference to judge thier ability to give qualified answers. I happen to believe that a scooter class is of great benefit. I know great scooter divers that never took a class, however I know a lot of bad ones as well. I understand that just because you have a card doesn't mean you know what you are doing, but I think the majority of DPV card holders are qualified. I think it is great for landowner relationships when they see us sort of self policing, not coming on here and reading how some of us don't need a class.

I truly believe in the mentoring/free exchange of information system, as I have been a large recipient and benefited greatly from that system, by some very experienced divers. I do my best to pass that on. I am always willing to dive with anyone, no matter their level, and answer as many questions as possible, as thoroughly as possible, as long as it is within the scope of their current training/abilities. I find it inappropriate to give detailed diving information about an advanced level cave dive to someone I have not met, and know nothing of their qualifications or training.

I too could do without the chest thumping...

[adam0321]

one thing i truly believe in is so much context is lost in text. I am a very sarchastic person and if often does not come out well in text. I kinda feel bad asking rob and sludge everything and was looking for a different point of view. I agree you have the option to ask about anothers quals, but its the way alot of peole ask. I can see if some one was to ask "how much deco do I need to dive dipolder 3" I would not answer that and probaly ask about his quals. but advice on buying a used scooter? I felt that was pretty innocent. maybe I was wrong it happens quite a bit(100+)
I seldom talk to people at dive sites for this very reason. at the end of the day all I wasnt to do is learn dive then teach

[adam0321]

My best advice? Don't post before you use the search functions first. Half the questions are not new.

I have been very guilty of this before and take the hit

Oh, by the way, Cavediver.net needs a spell check!

my teacher said I would regrett this some day. you know how funny it is being a pre law major and cant spell worth a darn

[Marc Bryan]

Another approach I use is to list my reasons for wanting to know. Eg......

I am in the beginning stage of researching a scooter purchase for my upcoming class. I would appreciate any insight offered as to the experience you had when buying your scooter. TIA....Marc

Or........

I have been diving some of the more well known systems for the past three years, and am interested in diving some of the off the beaten path systems. I would appreciate any advice on where to start my research. I am full/dpv/ mix trained, so am open to anything. Feel free to PM me for references, or if you do not want to post publicly.

Something like this would be better received than a short info request.

Marc

[floridabob]

Just F'ing with you about spelling!

[Benderr]

I have every right to ask your quals, if you want my advice. Giving information out freely is great, but you give it to the wrong people, and you have people dying in caves. There are divers who think they need very little training to do advanced dives.

You will get alot further by making the training attractive, and by trying to be inclusive than you will by quizzing folks on their stats or trying to be the dive police. No one likes the dive police.

I've participated in two rescues in my life, both shore dives, and both full cave divers. What is basically easy for me, almost killed two "elite" divers. Should I ask someone their qualifications before giving them advice on making a shore entry? Maybe I should start giving stress tests before I give advice, because I've noticed that many divers are a bit overweight, and out of shape too. It's dangerous to encourage diving around people who can't swim against a light current for a few minutes

I know this no where near applies to everyone and not even the majority of cave/tech divers, but alot of us put off a very cocky and arrogant vibe to the rest of the diving community.

I guess what I am trying to get at it just because you have this qual or have made that dive or have dove with hat guy or laid this line nothing gives you the right to talk down to or think you are better then another diver trying to seek information.

As a non-cave diver, I can say that you guys SEEM to have more than your fair share of @$$4073s. (let me grab some kevlar real quick...)

Seriously though, the people in your group that I respect the most are the ones that are always willing to offer kind advice, usually with a gentle suggestion to find a good instructor before proceeding with my next step. Because of those types, I have a better understanding of what I DON'T know, and a better respect for the limitations of my training.

[adam0321]

Another approach I use is to list my reasons for wanting to know. Eg......

I am in the beginning stage of researching a scooter purchase for my upcoming class. I would appreciate any insight offered as to the experience you had when buying your scooter. TIA....Marc

Or........

I have been diving some of the more well known systems for the past three years, and am interested in diving some of the off the beaten path systems. I would appreciate any advice on where to start my research. I am full/dpv/ mix trained, so am open to anything. Feel free to PM me for references, or if you do not want to post publicly.

Something like this would be better received than a short info request.

Marc

you are absolutley right and I really should start doing that more