Peacock,Madison,and Troy CLOSED?!!!

[OFG-1]

John, the people were upset because the annual pass they had paid for was not being honored for the activity in which they intended to use it at the time of purchase. I paid for an annual pass primarily to dive, so if that privilege becomes revoked, I'm going to be pissed.

That being said, I'd gladly pay extra $$$ for a diving pass, even though I don't dive state parks all that often.

Perhaps, but the state offered to refund the cost of the annual pass to anyone that asked.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...warranted+cost

See post 18 and read the letter from Brian Fugate.

[JahJahwarrior]

Half-Fast- I agree, very different dynamic in some ways. However, CEO's do generally answer to a board of directors and if public, their shareholders. In that sense, they are not elected every day by a vote, but by lack of one, voting them out. In reality, it's very complicated, and I agree the analogy was not perfect, but the idea behind it was the need to have sound financial principles in place. Your point on raising tax revenue is spot on, and is shown beautifully by a Laffer Curve. It's such a simple concept, that I guess it makes sense almost no politicians understand it. The state needs to focus on raising GDP, not increasing percentage of taxes, I think you are spot on there.

DA- thank you for not writing a lecture. I think if you look at the spirit of my point, and focus more on the 2nd sentence than a literal translation of the first, you'll find you don't push any idea significantly different from mine. The recent financial disasters were actually the result of unsound financial practices. Yes, they were perpetrated by businessmen, so if you take my suggestion to put businesspeople in power literally, instead of focus on the idea of putting people who have a sound understanding of business and financial principles in power, then your arguments become moot. I don't want corrupt businessmen in power any more than I want corrupt politicians, and I'm sure you were aware of that when you posted.

SDHussey- Let me play devil's advocate for a second here. I was recently at a local gun range that is run by the government. They charge X per day to use the range. I waited over an hour in the waiting room, as the range was full. They were understaffed. I finally gave up and went to another range nearby that charges 1.5X per HOUR per PERSON. At the second range I had no waiting time to get in a lane. The range was indoors and air conditioned, not outdoors, so no bugs. They had runners in the top of the ceiling so no cold range time wasted. In other words, there is a concept called Supply and Demand that suggests the higher the price is, the less people will consume a unit of that good: Peacock is cheaper than Ginnie so more people go to Peacock. The other side of this suggests that the lower the price, the less sellers will offer for consumption a unit of that good. Peacock is cheaper so they are willing to close it and lose that revenue. Ginnie is more expensive, and we never get threatened with budget-related closures, do we? Another related aspect is overall destruction of the aquifer. A higher price would lead to less cave diving, which would lead to less damage to the caves

Could it be that $5/car is too little to charge? They obviously feel so. If they ran the park like a businessman, they would find the optimal price to charge to ensure steady demand while meeting costs to atleast break even.

The one difference between the literal and eh...spirital...translation of my idea is the difference between profit and break even. I want people with an understanding of business concepts to run the state, so that they BREAK EVEN. The government should not make a profit. If you literally took businesspeople in to run the state, they would try to make a profit. So, I don't literally want business people running the state, merely people who understand how to not lose money. (and granted, not evey person with business understandings will always break even, there might be years they lose a little, that's to be expected, but should not lead to closures)

Additionally, the entrance fee to Ginnie isn't half bad compared to the fee required to go on boat dives or the such. It's very high compared to state park entry fees, but when you look at places that have to make a profit to survive, Ginnie is the same or lower usually.

OFG- You can always find anecdotal evidence to support ideas. Would you like me to produce a list of all the businessmen who made a profit fairly while providing the world with a useful service? I don't really want to get into a stupid argument over that. Yes, there are lots of selfish business men, and lots of failed businessmen. However, there are lots of selfless businessmen, and lots of successful businessmen. All of that is beside the point, as once again someone took me literally instead of understanding that I merely meant people with an understanding of business principles.

I agree that it is important to elect people with integrity. This governor could preside over both the biggest medicare fraud and the biggest park travesty, I just hope he does better than that.

[SDHussey]

You can always find anecdotal evidence to support ideas.

Let me play devil's advocate for a second here. I was recently at a local gun range that is run by the government ...

A higher price would lead to less cave diving, which would lead to less damage to the caves.

Fortunately, your instructor did not feel the same elitist way. Or the manufacturers and retailers who provided the goods & services that you required to become a cave diver. But you probably knew this already because of your pedagologically understanding of

a concept called Supply and Demand that suggests

[RN]

Perhaps, but the state offered to refund the cost of the annual pass to anyone that asked.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...warranted+cost

See post 18 and read the letter from Brian Fugate.

And then within a couple of days, they changed the rules again and actually lowered the cost of daily diving.

[DA Aquamaster]

Peacock is cheaper than Ginnie so more people go to Peacock. The other side of this suggests that the lower the price, the less sellers will offer for consumption a unit of that good. Peacock is cheaper so they are willing to close it and lose that revenue. Ginnie is more expensive, and we never get threatened with budget-related closures, do we? Another related aspect is overall destruction of the aquifer. A higher price would lead to less cave diving, which would lead to less damage to the caves

Years of program direction and program evaluation experience, including the fiscal aspects of both discretionary and formula grant programs has shown me one thing over and over - the law of unintended consequences.

I have found that it often results from an over application of theory, unbalanced by real world experience. It all sounds good, but the devil is usually in the details you don't know, and lacking adequate experience, you often don't even know that you don't know those details.

In that regard I am always very cautious about throwing around assumptions. For example assuming that increasing the price of a day of cave diving will reduce the number of cave divers and therefore reduce the damage to caves is potentially flawed. If certification costs are within a few percent of being the same (which would be the case with higher daily dive/park fees), the the number of cave divers who become certified will not be significantly reduced. However, when you increase the daily park fee (or require dievers to pay $22-30 at a commercial operation like Ginnie), you potentially add a significant cost to the cost of diving on a particular day. That could result in a significant number of divers diving less often, with a decreased ability to improve and maintain their skill levels, increasing the damage to caves.

Similarly, if you close or increase the cost of diving at popular touristy caves with the infrastructure to support large numbers of divers, you create a significant probability that those divers will just dive elsewhere, creating more diving pressure and more damage to other caves in the area, and quite possibily creating more erosion, litter and other side effects from the surface related activities surrounding diving. So in effect you are again increasing damage by both spreading it around and by increasing diver pressure in areas where the roads, parking, facilities, etc, cannot support it. What is even worse, those are all factors that could result in more private sector and public sector cave access issues, tightening the downward spiral of more pressure on fewer caves leading to more damage, leading to more closures, etc.

All of the above are potential unintended consequences of something that sounds good on the surface. In my oinion, and in my experience, program and business plans both run off the road, often with the best of intent, because the plan targets a specific desired outcome but fails to take into account, or even consider all the potential unintended consequences that will accompany that outcome. What is important is the ability and the willingness to look at the larger picture from a more systemic viewpoint, and unfortunately that trait is often lacking in both politicians and business people.

[metaldector]

Gentlemen and ladies, I love the idea of fighting this proposed closing of State Parks containing dive able caves. There are lots of ideas and talk about throwing money at the problem via increased fees, etc. I suggest we find out what the NFSA found out at their Saturday meeting with Park Management before doing a knee jerk reaction and plan a coordinated effective response.
You do know that the State Parks are owned and paid for by the citizens of Florida don't you? Since you already paid for the Parks with your tax dollars you do have an expectation, nay a right to question government policy on this issue. Who made the improvements at the parks in question? Cave divers and cave diver organizations. Who opened roads to the springs when hurricanes littered them with down trees? Cave divers. Who got the road opened to Peacock as the State dragged its feet fixing the road in 2008, Cave Excursions (a diving company) and others. As such, cave divers should not have to pay more for the use of the Parks then any other persons be they hikers, picnickers, horse riders, swimmers, tubers, etc. we citizens already paid. The reason last years fee hike for divers was reversed was because we are not a special class of Park users, we are just Park users who happen to enjoy the sport of cave diving. All of you have time, and money invested in your training, and equipment. Can you use this training and equipment at a non-cave diving park?
Have you ever met a foreign diver at one of these Springs. Think of the cost involved in making a trip from another country to take training, equipment rentals, housing, food, and other service that is spent by these visitors in the State of Florida. The Springs in question are destinations! The loss of visitors and money to these low attended Parks and region will impact the whole of Florida. Movies are made, video shot, magazine articles written, book published about Florida’s cave country. This area is known world wide in diving circles. Tourism is a keystone of Florida’s economy, close the Parks and it’s gone.
Finally, we are in tough economic times, and budget cuts will be necessary. There probably are too many State Parks! Most of them offer the same activities: hiking, canoeing, camping, fishing, beaches, etc. But there are only handfuls that offer scuba diving and cave diving. A reasonable person can not say that if a cave diving Park is closed a cave diver can just use another State Park. But that argument can be said of most other Park activities. Picnickers have local, county, regional, and State Parks to picnic in. Canoeing can be done on many of the States lakes, rivers, and oceans, as can most other sports and recreational activies. Its cave diving that can be done only in these few State Parks. As such, we need to endorse closing of many of the Parks on the list that don’t impact cave divers and loudly complain about the three Parks threatened; Wes Skiles Peacock Springs, Madison Blue, and Troy Springs.

[BobK]

Think about this. Businessmen ran Enron. Businessmen ran Worldcom. Bernie Madoff was a businessman. So are the guys that ran GM, Chrysler, Fannie Mae, Leyman Brothers, AIG insurance.

It doesn't matter who or what we elect. If the people elected do not have any personal integrity, then it is of no matter.

ps - Florida just elected a businessman as Governor who was CEO of a company that was involved in the biggest Medicare fraud in the state's history, but don't worry, he didn't know.

To be fair, the government runs Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, HHS, Dept of Ed, etc etc. Fannie Mae was also propped up by insane government guarantees. They go through more "losses" with our money EACH year than all of the above, total.

[BobK]

Could it be that $5/car is too little to charge? They obviously feel so. If they ran the park like a businessman, they would find the optimal price to charge to ensure steady demand while meeting costs to atleast break even.

I agree. Parks aren't police or fire departments. They aren't necessary state services. Why does everyone in the state have to support park use by a much smaller subset of people in the state ? Fees should be whatever they need to be to cover the cost of maintaining the particular park. It's time for the government at every level to stop expanding, and start shrinking. This is just a small part of that.

[Shocky]

Just joined family NFSA, will push others here in SE FL to join.
John

[Kelly Jessop]

Everybody

Thanks for your support. Your voices have been heard,and we are here to respond to this issue.

We convened on Saturday and this was an opportunity to educate ourselves. The State of Florida has a several billion dollar short fall,and each agency has been required to perform an exercise for a 15% reduction in their budget. This same thing was done last year,with the same parks targeted,but nothing happened. This year is different in that even though the same budget cutting exercise was completed,there is a new administration that has the intent to address the fiscal crisis in Florida. So the alarm is ringing,is this a fire drill or the real thing? Nobody really knows,but it is prudent to assume the worst,and have a concerted effort to to make our preferences known.

The NFSA is dedicated 100% to addressing this issue and informing you of what is going on. We feel correspondence directed to certain levels of government will have the best effect from the cave diving community. In the days to come we will provide you with addresses,and some bullet points relevent to these parks,but right now we are awaiting some public information on park statisitics,so we ask you put your printers on a temporary stand by.

The NFSA will also educate the noncave diving community that would have a significant economic impact with these park closures aka "ripple effect",and solicit their support.

As stated earlier we thank you for your support,and the new members,because the larger our membership base, the bigger our voice is.

Sincerely
Kelly Jessop
President NFSA