Narcosis -- insidious and subtle

[JahJahwarrior]

Lamont, can you explain that better?

What I read from your post is:
Team 1 goes into the cave. Team 2 places a cookie as they do the same jump (did they run separate jump lines as we would do in America? Here, each time would run their own lines, so no confusion). When Team 1 returns, their lead diver takes the cookie placed by Team 2, and then proceeds to go in the wrong direction.

That makes absolutely no sense at all, and seems to indicate that using cookies lead to the death of the divers.

Either way, you have an instance where apparently FOUR divers all AGREED to go the wrong direction.

Proper protocol requires EVERY member of a team to VERIFY the jump and direction the team is heading. Lynn wants to do this with individual, unique cookies. I want to do this by having every team member give me the OK sign, which indicates to me that we are at the right spot, going the right direction, that there is no reason not to continue in this direction including things like gas supply, cave conditions, medical problems, etc. I would require this from every member of a team even if they did place a cookie.

If every member of a team says it's ok to go the wrong direction, then there are serious errors in mental judgement and I wouldn't be at all surprised if these people would have died in almost any condition or cave. Alternatively, we have a situation where three divers blindly followed a leader who made a bad call, and we all know it's foolish to do a trust-me dive.

(one thing drummed into me during training was "line, light, cave." First, know where the line is. This ensures you can find your way out. Second, know where your buddy's light is, this ensures you don't abandon your buddy. Third, be aware of the cave. This will increase your enjoyment of the dive, as well as help prevent you from going the wrong direction. The one time I went the wrong way in a cave when returning from a jump, I blatantly ignored the direction the arrow was pointing. I recognized the cave looked wrong, and my buddy quickly caught my mistake and got my attention, and I turned around and we exited the correct way. It was awareness of the cave and my buddy's light that together helped me realize my mistake within seconds of making it. He did not blindly follow me, and I did not blindly go the wrong direction.)

And Lynn, I agree, eventually everyone has a come to Jesus dive of some sort or another.

[lamont]

Proper protocol requires EVERY member of a team to VERIFY the jump and direction the team is heading. Lynn wants to do this with individual, unique cookies. I want to do this by having every team member give me the OK sign, which indicates to me that we are at the right spot, going the right direction, that there is no reason not to continue in this direction including things like gas supply, cave conditions, medical problems, etc. I would require this from every member of a team even if they did place a cookie.

I would be willing to place bets that the two divers who died would have claimed, similarly, that they wanted communication about the navigation and that it was team decision that needed to be communicated, everyone needs to agree on the exit, etc. I doubt that they would have said that they were just going to go into the cave without any clue and blindly follow someone else, I'm sure they thought they were safe cave divers and thought they knew how to follow a process to get them out of the cave.

What I think you had in this case was a breakdown in that [your] protocol, where communication failed, which is the weak point of that protocol. On the other hand, the protocol of placing individual cookies means that each individual diver is navigating their way out of the cave -- they still need to communicate, but they're doing so from a perspective of being forced to be responsible for their own navigation, and where communication with other team members is not involved in their own individual navigation out of the cave.

As was posted earlier, it also makes team separation protocols easier to deal with and can be useful communication that one diver has already been there and is heading to the exit, and there's simply no possibility of pulling a team cookie while one member of the team is still in the cave.

I don't see anything but potential downsides from using team cookies, team gear, etc. Using individual cookies may not be bulletproof (nothing is), but all I can see are improvements over the other alternative.

[DA Aquamaster]

My "whining" has to do with the fact that I would like a long and enjoyable career of doing this -- my sole ambition as a cave diver is never to be truly frightened in a cave. (I'd prefer not to be truly frightened diving, but I'll settle for avoiding it in overhead environments.) My physical skills as a diver are fairly solid, and my emergency procedures are solid. The thing that's going to get me into trouble, if I get into trouble, is going to be a lapse of situational awareness. Depth seems to play a role in this, to me, but I suppose I won't really know unless I do these dives on mix and discover I make the same errors.

/snip/

It does get pretty silly-looking, if you have several teams in the cave at the same time, all going to the same place. I saw a team coming out one day and pulling up their jump spool get very confused when they got to the mainline and found six cookies on it (since both of our teams had marked the "intersection")!

Marci and I use a team cookie approach when we dive together, although on larger teams with other divers in the group we may use individual cookies, r more likely dive as two teams of two along the same planned route and have each "team" drop a cookie but then share the same primary reel with the last team out pulling the reel.

I do think it is important that when using a team cookie, that the cookie gets left until the last person exiting pulls the cookie. That ensures the team cookie stays until the entire team has exited past that point. As long as the team is properly functioning and maintains the proper order and SA, then more cookies are redundant and in the extreme (with either large teams of a large number of teams) can begin to generate their own brand of confusion. Common sense needs to be used.

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I have had a couple come to Jesus moments in commercial diving, but nothing quite like that in cave diving. There is simply no reason to push things in a recreational situation where no life or property is at risk. Still, I had one expereince that got my immediate and undivided attention. When pulling old line out of silt in a fairly small and silty sidemount tunnel, in a section where there had already been some back and forth identifying and discriminating between a really old broken line and a newer but still old replacement, I totally missed a T in the passage and failed to mark it. I did note that Marci had paused, moved a tank, etc, for a minute or so before proceeding. I did not realize until on the way out that delay was due to Marci noting the T, digging out a cookie she never expected to have to use (because I cookie on every navigational decision where a cookie will clarify the picture), and marked the T.

When I noted the T, and Marci's cookie, the enormity of the mistake got my attention. Marci's plan was to expore the other branch of the T, but I wanted us to first back track on the exit side far enough to assure myself that I knew exactly where we were. That only took about 100'. Then we communicated, regrouped, went back to the T and explored the other branch. Which only went about 30-40ft before it silted in anyway.

In the big picture, the mistake was not life threatening as we had other safety nets in place: 1) the second (other) team member(s) verifying my navigation and catching the mistake, 2) awareness of the cave including noting features of the cave, noting times, turn pressures and estimates of distances between navigational decisons that would provide some cues in the event we both took the wrong route out, and 3) a situation where the cave was not in the mood that day to let us get too lost anyway, so even if we'd done everything wrong, we'd have still survived. (But I don't believe in ever relying on luck so 3 does not count.)

In that regard, I agree that if you dive in challenging conditions you will eventually make a serious mistake, but the key is to always ensure, as an aerobatic instructor told me once, that you are at least 2 or 3 mistakes "high" when you make any single mistake to allow plenty of altitude for a successful recovery to controlled flight. That type of conservative, safety oriented, multilayer approach applies to cave diving as well as it lets you push your personal envelope in a manner that is both educational by allowing you get into new situations, make mistakes and learn from them, but also ensures you live long enough to be able to benefit and use what you learned.

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I agree with Andrew regarding perceptual narrowing. It can occur in any high stress, high task loaded environment. For exmapel in instrument flight training, a good instructor will task load the bejeesus out of you then throw you an emergency and then quietly slip in the one that will kill you if you are too focused on working the first one. Cave training works the same way, and diving in new conditions and/or in new cave can have the same effect as your attention must be split several more ways than you'd normally expect or encounter.

However, the problem is that narcosis by its very nature tends to accentuate and exacerbate perceptual narrowing, so it becomes something of a chicken or the egg issue as the END edges progressively deeper.

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I've noticed on some older lines in less traveled caves where clothes pins were on the line on the exit side of placements. That is obviously the same concept as putting cookies on the exit sides of various double arrows (midpoints), T's and jumps, but extended to major cave features used as a placement.

[JahJahwarrior]

What I think you had in this case was a breakdown in that [your] protocol, where communication failed, which is the weak point of that protocol. On the other hand, the protocol of placing individual cookies means that each individual diver is navigating their way out of the cave -- they still need to communicate, but they're doing so from a perspective of being forced to be responsible for their own navigation, and where communication with other team members is not involved in their own individual navigation out of the cave.

As was posted earlier, it also makes team separation protocols easier to deal with and can be useful communication that one diver has already been there and is heading to the exit, and there's simply no possibility of pulling a team cookie while one member of the team is still in the cave.
.

You did not explain the incident in question any better. Was my interpretation correct? My understanding is a team placed a cookie, and yet went the opposite way that their cookie was placed, meaning that cookies did nothing to help the team at all.

If every team member verifies the exit, there should be no issues. When placing an arrow to point the way out of the cave, there should be no possibility to go the wrong way, unless the arrow was placed facing the wrong direction, but this will be caught by the other buddies. If it was placed the wrong way and all the cookies are on the wrong side, and they get back to their jump, they have to make a judgement call-- when did they screw up? Is the arrow wrong, or are the cookies wrong? Either mistake should have been caught when the divers OK'd the decision. The only time to use cookies imho is when you cannot place an arrow without it conflicting with system arrows. Then, using an arrow is dangerous for your team and for anyone else in the system. In that instance, a non directional, yet directional, marker should be used, to indicate only to the team that their direction is out. And in that instance, I would tend to see more benefits to every team placing cookies. Otherwise, I don't see the need. The arrow placed at the jump should be plenty.

I don't see very many downsides to every person placing cookies, but i still don't see any example of a fatality caused by lack of individual cookies. Fatalities are caused because divers make bad judgement calls and ignore the signs that they are going the wrong way. If you turn your brain off in the cave, you will die, no matter how many cookies you use. The four divers in the example given, as best as I can tell, died because they all agreed to go the wrong way, OR one person went the wrong way and the other three broke protocol, did not communicate that it was incorrect, and left their brains off, and never realized they were going the wrong way.

Cave diving kills people who make foolish decisions. In some instances, I think individuals cookies might help, but keeping your brain on during the dive is also hugely important.

[lamont]

You did not explain the incident in question any better. Was my interpretation correct? My understanding is a team placed a cookie, and yet went the opposite way that their cookie was placed, meaning that cookies did nothing to help the team at all.

It meant that a single cookie (no plural) did nothing to help the team at all.

I believe the diver who pulled the cookie was one of the two survivors and actually followed other divers down the other line and couldn't explain afterwards why he'd pulled the cookie and then gone the wrong direction. That detail relies on my memory and the posted analysis both being correct, though, so it could be incorrect.

We do know that 4 divers came to a single cookie and all of them wound up going the wrong direction.

If every team member verifies the exit, there should be no issues.

"should"

When placing an arrow to point the way out of the cave, there should be no possibility to go the wrong way,

"should"

unless the arrow was placed facing the wrong direction, but this will be caught by the other buddies. If it was placed the wrong way and all the cookies are on the wrong side, and they get back to their jump, they have to make a judgement call-- when did they screw up? Is the arrow wrong, or are the cookies wrong? Either mistake should have been caught when the divers OK'd the decision.

"should"

The only time to use cookies imho is when you cannot place an arrow without it conflicting with system arrows. Then, using an arrow is dangerous for your team and for anyone else in the system. In that instance, a non directional, yet directional, marker should be used, to indicate only to the team that their direction is out. And in that instance, I would tend to see more benefits to every team placing cookies. Otherwise, I don't see the need. The arrow placed at the jump should be plenty.

"should"

I don't see very many downsides to every person placing cookies, but i still don't see any example of a fatality caused by lack of individual cookies. Fatalities are caused because divers make bad judgement calls and ignore the signs that they are going the wrong way. If you turn your brain off in the cave, you will die, no matter how many cookies you use. The four divers in the example given, as best as I can tell, died because they all agreed to go the wrong way, OR one person went the wrong way and the other three broke protocol, did not communicate that it was incorrect, and left their brains off, and never realized they were going the wrong way.

Cave diving kills people who make foolish decisions. In some instances, I think individuals cookies might help, but keeping your brain on during the dive is also hugely important.

I believe that individual cookies reinforce keeping your brain on during the dive.

[JahJahwarrior]

But you have to admit that it doesn't replace brain function. The cookie puller in this instance did exactly what you wanted: put a cookie for himself, and pulled it. It did nothing to help him, he still went the wrong way.

So you are saying that if the other three had put cookies, then perhaps they would have done something different. It is possible. However, it's also possible that:
-they all put cookies on the wrong side, and go the wrong way on exit
-they all put cookies on the right side, and go the wrong way on exit

It sounds to me like four divers turned off their brain, and like they could have all kept their brains off while dropping individual cookies. Adding another protocol does nothing if people ignore it or turn their brains off while they do it. The same mistake that kills people with my one protocol can kill people with your two protocols, and I think that you will have people who, because they are all dropping cookies, pay less attention to the other protocol (everyone OK's the decision) and perhaps turn their brain off ("I dropped a cookie, so I'll go the right way. I don't need to double check by looking at the cave or asking my buddies because this cookie is dropped to prevent my making any mistakes.") Similar to the response by drivers to extra safety functions: antilock braking means it's harder to skid so we drive faster in bad conditions, trusting the car to prevent an accident. Because we are driving faster, more accidents end up happening even with the technology.

Basically, I don't exactly disagree with your logic. I think extra cookies can be a good thing. I think that they can add to the confusion when you have so many people on a line. I just don't want people thinking that this one extra protocol will be a huge lifesaver, because people can still do stupid stuff, especially if they are narced or task loaded. A task loaded buddy could easily pull his cookie, then absent mindedly follow his buddy, who also pulled a cookie but due to narcosis went the wrong direction. If neither buddy realizes the mistake soon enough, they can die very easily.

What amazes me is how many people die due to lack of gas. In a sport where we have a guage that clearly tells us how much gas we have left, there is almost no excuse for breaking thirds, besides turning off your brain. Guages on tanks are the equivalent of a GPS system for the cave, a GPS system would be even safer than lines, right? But people ignore guages on tanks, leading me to believe people can ignore however many cookies you have them place. Even if every diver ran their own individual jump line, to their own personalized marker, with their own personalized cookie, that all require a 4 digit PIN to be pulled and all audibly tell the diver which way to go, and beep when divers go the wrong way, I think someone will end up going the wrong way, ignoring all the signs because of narcosis, perceptual narrowing, or any other factor that inhibits clear thinking.

[DA Aquamaster]

I believe that individual cookies reinforce keeping your brain on during the dive.

I agree. In some cases where we are diving with a "team" cookie approach on a larger team, I have been known to drop my own cookies in places the team lead did not choose to do so and/or in circumstances where I want my own cookie with my own initials and tactile markings on it just to be sure that I can verify that we will be exiting the right way. That might happen in new cave, at an odd looking intersection that will look even odder from the other direction, and when the END is starting to get in the 100' range where a little extra clarity in the situaion always helps.

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In the Mexico incident under discussion, it is obvious that one person made a mistake and the rest of the team followed, even against the indication provided by the single team cookie. Obviously the team was not truly looking at the cookie and processing what it meant and/or they perhpas had not truly observed and verified it when it was placed and were consequently not sure it was correctly placed in the first place. You need to verify it on the way in to have confidence in it on the way out.

I do agree that had all 4 people on the team dropped cookies and then picked cookies up, there would have been 3 more chances for a team member to verify to was correct on the way in and then pick up their cookie and catch that the preceding members of the team were going the wrong way during the "exit".

Of course, if none of the team is thinking, then multiple cookies can still become monkey see monkey do with cookie number one being misplaced and cookies 2,3 and 4 being neatly misplaced right behind it. Same with picking up a cookie and then still going the wrong way. In either case, if you are just *following* instead of *thinking*, the odds of surviving for long as a cave diver are going to go down.

[LCF]

Oh, I'm quite sure that, if I keep doing this, I'll have some dives where things go wrong . . . I guess my goal is to be those "two errors up" so that I can always decide what to do and put it into action, even if a bit stressed. What I would call truly frightened is a situation where I DON'T know what to do, or can't see a good strategy, or have failed to keep myself "two errors up" because I screwed up marking or missed a T or did a visual jump out of inattention, or something like that.

[LiteHedded]

if everyone is on the same page and everyone is expected to place a cookie mistakes like this won't happen. if someone on my team forgets a cookie everything stops until they place a cookie and acknowledge the direction of the exit. it's happened before when we bring newer divers into the team etc.

your team here thought you were good to go but you totally forgot about that T. if you were expected to drop a cookie there they would have stopped and questioned you before you swam past it.

[lamont]

But you have to admit that it doesn't replace brain function. The cookie puller in this instance did exactly what you wanted: put a cookie for himself, and pulled it. It did nothing to help him, he still went the wrong way.

So you are saying that if the other three had put cookies, then perhaps they would have done something different. It is possible. However, it's also possible that:
-they all put cookies on the wrong side, and go the wrong way on exit
-they all put cookies on the right side, and go the wrong way on exit

[...etc, etc...]

You can use that kind of logic to negate any and every cave diving protocol.

I gave you a perfectly good example of where dropping a single cookie killed a team and you are posting nothing other than rationalizations.