Wisconsin cave diving!

[Ken Hill]

They were making ........

I'd like to chime in here and suggest something Tamara. The posts state "THEY" when referring to the DNR. It would be in your interest to find the name of a person or committee behind this policy and the specific motivation behind it. The DNR people in the public meetings are using work product of a subordinate DNR staff member assigned to propose the regulation. You will need to find that person. It may be a biologist, or other scientific or conservation advocate within the DNR (like any bureaucracy) that decides if a policy is needed and then sets out to create policy to address the issue.

The need for new policy may have come about from staffer(s) that are acting on personal motivation (no directives from outside the DNR forcing the issue) or one that addresses requirements placed on the DNR by some probable federal policy or procedure. If internal factors are the sole force behind the new policy you might be surprised to find some dedicated stewards of the cave environment who you need to make alliances with. If they are the product of a Federal guideline or a caving policy set elsewhere and in place solely to address requirements or other mandates imposed on the DNR there is not much you can do until you find out what the outside factor is. Often times outside influences are a square peg in round hole fix or a knee jerk reaction on the part of the DNR. Find the flaw, address it and work with them to make appropriate policy if needed.

I suspect the regs are a mandate from the federal government tied to funding. In some cases policies are there because they are really needed in other places. The government paints with a broad brush and imposes its very general policy on the states. It is a big help to have assistance and the not for profits. The conservation policies of the NSS-CDS and the NACD can be of help and often provide workable solutions in place elsewhere. The conservation and cleanup programs of both groups and cite stewardship already in use on a national and international level and paint with a fine brush to address local needs. It’s uphill but it seems the trend is national regulation, you in Wisconsin may be the canary in the mineshaft.

[Tamara Thomsen]

I'm going to try to reply to both Ken and Jon- and thank you both for your input.

I know EXACTLY who "they" is- specifically there are three individuals with in the WDNR - (not naming any names here) the lands manager, the head of endangered species division, and the bat ecologist. This is not a fight that I am just coming in to- I've been attending meetings, and public comment sessions, not to mention emailing my comments to the department for about 5 months now and I personally spoke before the Natural Resources Board last Wednesday. You are exactly correct in assuming the policy is based on personal motivation- I can spend hours giving you my theories on this- haha.

Interesting enough, WDNR policy is based around the incorrect conclusion that humans are a major vector in the spread of WNS. There have been multiple letters written to the DNR by the NSS, Bat Conservation Intl., and many, many other bat experts. Hazel Barton even came up here to dispute their conclusions, but the DNR's lawyer only let her address the DNR's bat working group for 5 mins. and then she was asked to sit down and be quiet. Working with the DNR has been a bit like talk radio- you are given a certain amt. of time to make your comment and then the staff can rebut or discredit your comment with whatever make-believe facts they can come up with and you can't stand up and say "hey, that's not true". It has been very, very frustrating.

The policy has changed a little bit since it's inception. There are advocates here in the Minnesota Speleological Survey Save the Bats Committee and a coalition of Wisconsin commercial cave owners who hired a high priced lawyer and have steered the policy to where it is now and will at least allow caving. But we still have a real problem- no one within DNR recognizes the difference between caving and cave diving. And the law has implications on all cave and mine entrances without regard to whether they are underwater, semi-submerged or dry. The law will only allow entrance to a cave or mine with permit/exemption, will only allow equipment into a cave that has been decontaminated via the US Fish and Wildlife procedures, and only allow equipment that has ONLY been used in Wisconsin and no other state. This is cost prohibititve to just about every diver I know...I mean who can afford a specific set of cave diving equipment for every state that you want to dive in.

What is unique in Wisconsin, is that the Natural Resources Board can vote into law emergency regulations when it involves an endangered or threatened species and it does not have to go past the legislators- it is immediate. Four species of bats were deemed by the NRB as threatened- so this allowed this all to happen at a very fast pace. The aforementioned "they" have been instructed by the office of the Secy. of the DNR to work with us (me) on an exemption to the law for cave diving. We (I) would like a blanket exemption for cave diving where an individual that does not leave the water will not fall under this law- also since the divers will not have contact with the soil where the spores of the fungus that result in WNS reside, I'm hoping that this should be allowed by DNR. Sump diving will be another issue and a bridge we (I) will cross later.

I sure hope this will all come to pass soon...thank you so much for your suggestions and support. I'll keep you filled in on what happens next.

[JCGoodwin]

Greetings Tamara I am sorry that is has happened and am concerned with others in the cave diving community.
This legislation is unfortunate but offers a great opportunity to convince responsible cave divers to commit to a information campaign.
It never ceases to amaze just how little the general population and law makers know about topics of which laws are being passed.
It is our responsibility, even when we should not have to become proactive as well as reactive on these issues.
Try to contact different cave diving associations to gain some support even if it is reference materials or information to present to your DNR / legislature.

This issue in WI can change and as many have been won over in the past it takes time to educate people that responsible use of cave environments.
Closing or prohibiting use is not going to help long term and the responsible use generates funds that can be used to further research and management techniques.
This is a reasonable objective that with some effort could be changed but it takes all of us to pitch in and do our part!
Peoples minds change one at a time!

JCG

[Ken Hill]

Tamara,
Sounds to me like you have done a lot and are in good shape to identify the people that need to have their minds changed. I expected to hear that you were in worse shape than you reported. Identifying the specific people you need to deal with is usually the hardest part and you’ve already done that.

So as I understand it there has been no legislation, but regulation based on the authority of the DNR to act within a range of accepted policy and within the scope of their authority. You are challenging the policy within the DNR and not the organization itself.

Earlier a letter writing campaign was suggested and that is a good idea. Challenging some misguided policy decisions within the DNR is acceptable behavior from the citizens of a state and that goes a lot farther than challenging the DNR. Question in the letter as to how DNR staffers determined how a divers in an underwater cave can affect the existence of a bat? Ask how steel cylinders can be contaminated from out of state use? Point out how cave divers perform public services such as critter counts and obtain water quality samples. Point out how broadly applied DNR policy can have an adverse effect on cave environments. These letters need to be addressed to your legislators and specifically to the members of the committee of the legislature that handles the funding of the DNR. Have your supporters mail the inquiries to them. Other tactics include writing to the Chamber of Commerce and County officials in the areas of the caves citing the revenue that is lost because the public land use has been restricted. Attend the legislators budget hearing when the DNR come up for funding. Ask for time to testify. Write to the head of the DNR citing your concerns.

TO SOME IT UP CHALLENGE THE UNWISE DECISIONS OF THOSE WITHIN THE DNR NOT THE DNR.

The people you cited as being in position to pull the strings are subject to pressure within their bureaucracy from above and below. It is your job to apply pressure on those above them and those outside the DNR are in the best position to do that. They will respond to a legislator inquiry as to why they are targeting cave diving. Your statement as to how they would not let you and others speak at a meeting highlights their vulnerability. Ask the legislators for a hearing where nationally recognized experts who support your position can testify to matters that DNR people refused to hear. Offer to invite DNR staffers to present their CV's so that they can rebut your expert's opinions.

They will back off and eventually and make access easier. They will not "lose" in public and they won't return to the "old days" because organizations need regulation in order to have authority and added authority brings about budget increases. Have faith that they will form a reasonable policy allowing access. Sign of the times I'm afraid.

[Tamara Thomsen]

Again- thank you for so many excellent suggestions!

Just to clarify, this is already law. It became law last Wednesday. Because of the emergency order by the Natural Resources Board, it will not go in front of the State Legislature to be voted upon - it bypasses them and goes directly into law. It's law now. There has already been a letter writing time, and a public comment time, and those have passed. Right now we are in the implimentation phase, where DNR works with land owners in education of the new law and conservation wardens in upholding the law. Last Wednesday, I was told by the Secretary of the DNR himself, that I would need to meet personally with members of their staff to write in the adjustments to this law that will be necessary to allow cave diving specifically- an exemption is what they are calling it. I am hoping that they finally call me back this week and we can get this taken care of right away.

The stickler seemed to be over the fact that cave divers equipment is used in other states besides Wisconsin (heaven forbid we dive in Florida or Missouri). It's frustrating and seems so easy to see that this is not an issue for divers who do not have contact with the soil. Hopefully coming back fresh after the weekend I can break through. I teach a lot of cave diving classes here, and we have a pretty active little community- I need to make this work!

If this is unsuccessful I've already plotted my next move. I'm going to need to contact the newly elected governor. He pledged in his campaign to reduce the size and power of the DNR - I need to figure out who within his task force is leading this project and make them help me! I am so apolitical, Ken, it seems backwards that I'm the one leading the charge on the Capital here in Madison.

[JeffBerry]

Tami,
I already let Jim Holperin in on this! He has helped on annother issue!

[Ken Hill]

I'm going to need to contact the newly elected governor. He pledged in his campaign to reduce the size and power of the DNR - I need to figure out who within his task force is leading this project and make them help me! I am so apolitical, Ken, it seems backwards that I'm the one leading the charge on the Capital here in Madison.

Think about first starting a dialogue with your local elected state representatives. You'll find it easier to talk to them and it will give you the opportunity to polish your approach if you need to involve the new Governor. Consider targeting/challenging the key people in the DNR who made the crucial decisions and not the DNR itself. Being apolitical is an asset! Politicians want you on their side and you have a sincere cause and a right to make them earn your trust .... use it to your advantage.

Press the point that they have made decisions about activity in underwater caves and their rules make no distinction. Press the point they refused to listen and merely adopted federal protocols. They took the protocols of the Park Service which is a part of the US Dept of Interior and the Fish and Wildlife Service which is a part of the Department of Agriculture and made rules that make no sense for Wisconsin cave divers. Be adamant that the staffers refused to listen because the were dealing with an issue not covered by the federal protocols they adopted. Suggest they took an easy way out. Make the point that tanks can be scrubbed and debris is routinely removed from breathing apparatus so as to ensure its functionality.

From the net I can see that you are dealing with an administrative rule they recently passed "Conservation officials work to ward off white nose syndrome for state bat population - 12/09/10 The DNR Board hopes it's bought some time for cave bats, with the passage of three rules Wednesday."

Their 10/27/2010 minutes reflect what they did. It seems they followed Federal policy and the recommendations of the NSS. See below: You need to address the decontamination as it applies to how it affects divers under water


"Mr. Ela requested the Department respond to three categories of issues heard during public appearances: 1) decontamination, 2) legal orders, and 3) adequacy of outreach to-date.
Laurie Osterndorf, Land Administrator spoke on decontamination concerns. She distributed the protocol the Department is advocating to the Board. It is posted on the website and is the same as the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (F&WS) and the National Park Service (NPS) protocol. The Department met with the WI Speleological Society. The National Speleological Society sent out a letter supporting decontamination. Ledgeview Cave is already doing this. Teachers are happy as it gives them another tool to educate their students. (HANDOUT)
Discussion followed on when this protocol was made available, whether the Department has reviewed the draft Federal WNS policy which may include decontamination, whether the Department would have the necessary tools in place if today’s emergency rule is not approved, whether the Department has inspection authority without the emergency rule."

If they cite the recommendation of the NSS agree with them, but to me more accurate the Cave Diving Section routinely deals with water filled cave access and they would like to ensure the any action is in the best interst of the water filled caves. FWIW, I think you'll do all right Gotta Go!!!

[AB8CD]

It looks like much has already been said... but I cannot resist pointing out an analogous situation that may offer some guidance. The ARRL (amateur radio relay league) has been fighting local and regional antenna restrictions regulations for years. They have developed excellent information packets as well as legal council for Hams all over the country. They have built up lobbying resources and networks (some have taken years to establish). They have recognized that what effects one region may quickly become precedent for others... It might behoove our Cave Diving organizations to look at what others have done in these areas. The ARRL is not a perfect organization but they have done well in this area.

[Tamara Thomsen]

I love the article that Ken quoted from - it shows EXACTLY the kind of spin of we are seeing within this process here.

The Lands Administrator "says" it's the same protocol as Fish & Wildlife- and everyone believes it, because it is printed in the paper! But Hazel Barton, who helped to write the Fish & Wildlife policy came here to speak against the logic they were using and additional restrictions Wisconsin added to their protocol. It's the difference between the wording "it's based on USF&W" and "it's the same as USF&W"- big difference when it comes down to it -ugh! The other spin I've seen is "we are working with NSS and Bat Conservation Intl." - the DNR received letters from these groups against the policy- I guess you can say that you're receiving input aka working with them if they send you "hate" mail! Then in the NRB meeting in October- the Land Administrator said that the department was working with cave owners- yet all the major cave owners were there at the meeting and testified that no one had been to their properties or even called them- but they had received a form letter telling them of the pending policy changes! It's unreal- it makes you almost paranoid that you need to be critical of everything you see put out.

Your suggestions are priceless, Ken- and everyone else for that matter that has contributed to this thread. I promise to keep you in the loop to how things turn out!

[FW]

Tammy, you did see this post, didn't you?

Chlorhexidine is a chemical antiseptic.[1] It is effective on both Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria, although it is less effective with some Gram-negative bacteria.[2] It has both bactericidal as well as bacteriostatic mechanisms of action, the mechanism of action being membrane disruption, not ATPase inactivation as previously thought.[3] It is also useful against fungi and enveloped viruses, though this has not been extensively investigated. Products containing chlorhexidine in high concentrations must be kept away from eyes and the ears, due to the risk of damage to those organs. However, chlorhexidine is safely used in very low concentrations in some contact lens solutions.