a hypothetical for discussion

[RN]

Glad to find more finger twirlers amongst cavers. I was starting to think cave community was mainly thumbers because so adamant has been the resistance if not ridicule when bringing this up pre-dive. I am always sure to ask what people use for turning, especially because my first cave instructor was a thumber. I have always been a turner not a thumber but I’ve found that a lot of cavers prefer the unequivocal thumb. I will do what is agreed but I can’t help it that I always associate thumb with ‘out NOW’, and get slightly irritated if there are delays without explanations after it is presented.

The problem is a lot of the old school instructors out there teach it and don't think anything else is acceptable. They're still cranking out students and so that's what you get. It's how I was taught and what I did until my incident. Now I twirl and rarely thumb. And I teach my students the same. I did have one student go on to another instructor when I told him he wasn't ready for the next level and he told me he was chastised for twirling. It's just the way it is. I guess until they're in a situation where it makes a difference they'll keep thumbing all dives. I even tell my students if they thumb it that means no drills. But it doesn't mean they can thumb every dive!

[alias]

I even tell my students if they thumb it that means no drills.

I was actually going to say this in my post. It took me some time to get used to the fact that drills still happened when someone had thumbed, even when I knew it was coming. Although, I have to say the only time we truly hit 6ths ahead of schedule (first time in the Ear not quite sticking to the riding lane as per plan), we did skip the drills because we had quite enough to debrief already

[giles45shop]

With the guys I normally dive w/ we use the finger twirl instead of a thumb. Recently, we also adopted a light signal version of this, which is an "OK" signal with the light, but on the ceiling instead of the floor. Basically, when it's time to turn, an attention signal, followed by a circular signal on the ceiling. We use ceiling instead of the floor to avoid confusion betwen "turnaround" and "OK". Obviously this requires knowing your team, and may not work in all caves, but just an idea that works for us.

John

[DA Aquamaster]

I'd think it'd be the opposite. If someone gives me the thumb, I'm going to be on them like the proverbial "white on rice" to ensure I'm available to help with whatever prompted thumb, should it get worse.

Same theme here. Twirly finger = follow at a reasonable/normal distance, thumb = follow right behind the team member.

[BabyDuck]

hey, john, i like that. what do you think, larry?

then again, at least with a turn or a thumb, the lead has to turn around anyway, so i guess it doesn't matter. i get irked at myself, though, when i've turned around because i was overly reading a non-signal. (not irked at my buddy, he's not usually a thrower of non-essential light.)

[DA Aquamaster]

As with any light signal, clarity is important, so it would have to be round, on the ceiling and done in a slow and deliberate manner to ensure it is not confused with another signal in order to be a viable option, and it would be limited to the lead diver, who will be turning around anyway. In order to be used by the trailing diver, it would have to be preceded by an attention signal, and in that case the lead diver is going to turn around anyway, so it offers no real advantage over the hand signal, unless someone on the team is nearsighted qnd can't see the hand signal, and that is another problem that shoudl be addressed on its own.

[MedCop]

My buddy and I twirl, the thumb means the dive is over, we are leaving NOW. The twirl means (to us) turn around, head toward the exit but the dive is not over and if one of us wants to "poke around" then the twirl allows this. If a thumb is thrown, no "poking around" head for the exit now.

The thumb usually gets thrown on the way toward the exit after the twirl just to make a defined point the dive is over.

[NEON]

To me a a twirl is simply "let's turn around" - we could be continuing the dive, just getting out of a particular passage, etc. A thumb up on the other hand would be an unequivocal "let's get out". If I wanted to get out faster I would signal for my buddy to hurry up. A twilrl is somewhat dubious and does not indicate reaching dive limits (be it gas, depth, distance, whatever).

[DA Aquamaster]

To me a a twirl is simply "let's turn around" - we could be continuing the dive, just getting out of a particular passage, etc. A thumb up on the other hand would be an unequivocal "let's get out". If I wanted to get out faster I would signal for my buddy to hurry up. A twilrl is somewhat dubious and does not indicate reaching dive limits (be it gas, depth, distance, whatever).

i Think I might agree wth you - partially - but you are sending a bit of a mixed message with the dubious comment. The twirly finger is indeed much more of a flexible signal with regard to why we are turning, but the meaning is crystal clear taken in the context in which it is given.

For example, we may do a dive with the intent to explore a side tunnel on the way in before continuing up the main tunnel to the turn point of the dive. As long as all divers understand the plan, then getting the twirly finger in the side tunnel just signifies ending that portion fof the overall plan and returing to the main line.

Then, at that navigational decision at the mainline, everyone is going to OK the navigational decision to continue farther in the main tunnel after checking gas and deco status to ensure it is worth the effort. If all are in agreement to proceed, you proceeed until you get a twirly finger for gas. If someone does not OK the decision to proceed, they can give the twirly finger to signal "turn the dive" or perhaps give a "thumb" to indicate the need to exit with no delay if the situaion warrants.

In short, with proper dive planning, proper SA and when the signal is taken in the context of the dive the twirly finger will not be ambiguous or dubious. If it is, the diver has far larger issues as a diver or within the team that need to be resolved and a "thumb" will not solve that larger problem.

[Sludge]

A twilrl is somewhat dubious and does not indicate reaching dive limits (be it gas, depth, distance, whatever).

I agree with DA - if someone wants to turn around, the reason doesn't enter into the equation. Just whether we exit at a leisurely pace or quickly.