open water divers at jackson blue.

[OneBrightGator]

I'm not being flippant but the bottom line is...

They don't know and the don't know they don't know. They think they know but they don't know.

This is exactly the truth, another know-it-all talking out their @ss about something they know nothing about. I'm like you though, Adam, still surprised this goes on even though it happens in every other facet of life. We need to keep fighting the good fight though.

[DA Aquamaster]

DA, I'm not talking about taking untrained students into the cavern zone. That's not what I use the basin for. I take OW students there for the confined water sessions. We never do OW check out dives there because it's not an appropriate location for it (not enough depth). I've trained a few OW divers there and haven't had any of them go back to dive there. I do make all my OW students watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" and the Rescue 911 episode with Woody Jasper, though.

I agree that taking OW divers to places like Eagle's Nest for AOW Deep dives is inappropriate. I don't have a problem with training OW divers in basins, though, as long as entry into the overhead is not done.

When you said confined water, I took that for what it means and was not assuming you took them in an overhead.

As adam 0321 states there's not much to dive there and the concern would be that an OW diver familair with the site might get "bored" and venture in the cavern. But what works works and if OW divers have not been going back there, it's a non problem - at least with a cave trained OW instructor who can put the appropriate respect for the cave into an OW diver.

[wingman]

I dont know why anyone who is not cave trained would want to dive there in the first place. I know it clear but no depth and really nothing to see. I work at a local dive shop in Panama city and alot of the instructors there go to vortex for there open water dives. I know I hear alot of students and divers in general talk about how they "cave dive all the time" and are barely ow qualified. I am the only cave diver who works at the shop and often find myself explainng the dangers of the sport for the untrained. My words often fall on deaf ears and at the end of my little rant the lead instructor in the shop tells a story about how she was diving at ginnie and went into a cave and didint really see the big deal. I dont understand how people can have such little concern and respect for the caves....

You are undermining their authority at the dive shop...it's an ego thing. OW divers go to the gate at vortex on a regular basis and cavern diving is on the cusp...ginnie springs is a good example (ginnie is an ow dive and she probably did not enter devils) and jb is a nice cavern dive, plenty to see, i am fascinated by the fossils every time. I assume you were talking about the cavern breakdown at jb and not down the chimney and the first breakdown there, even then a non cave diver died at jb not too long ago on a scooter dive beyond the second breakdown room.

[RN]

I dont know why anyone who is not cave trained would want to dive there in the first place. I know it clear but no depth and really nothing to see. I work at a local dive shop in Panama city and alot of the instructors there go to vortex for there open water dives. I know I hear alot of students and divers in general talk about how they "cave dive all the time" and are barely ow qualified. I am the only cave diver who works at the shop and often find myself explainng the dangers of the sport for the untrained. My words often fall on deaf ears and at the end of my little rant the lead instructor in the shop tells a story about how she was diving at ginnie and went into a cave and didint really see the big deal. I dont understand how people can have such little concern and respect for the caves....

Many non-cave trained divers say they dive caves when they don't really know what they're talking about. They may have gone in the Ginnie Ballroom, the Morrison cavern, or the first room of JB and they think they dive caves. I come across OW divers on a regular basis who tell me "I don't dive caves much." It seems to be an ego thing for most of them. They don't know the training required but they don't want to appear as if they aren't "that good" so they embellish on the truth. It's probably the same thing at the shop where you work.

As adam 0321 states there's not much to dive there and the concern would be that an OW diver familair with the site might get "bored" and venture in the cavern.

Fortunately, the OW divers I've trained there know the basin well enough that they won't pay the $25 entry fee to dive the basin. They know it's not worth it.

I assume you were talking about the cavern breakdown at jb and not down the chimney and the first breakdown there...

Adam is talking about the 1st breakdown...beyond the chimney. I spoke with him about it at Edd's yesterday. He also knows JB well enough to know the landmarks in the first part of the cave.

[adam0321]

You are undermining their authority at the dive shop...it's an ego thing. OW divers go to the gate at vortex on a regular basis and cavern diving is on the cusp...ginnie springs is a good example (ginnie is an ow dive and she probably did not enter devils) and jb is a nice cavern dive, plenty to see, i am fascinated by the fossils every time. I assume you were talking about the cavern breakdown at jb and not down the chimney and the first breakdown there, even then a non cave diver died at jb not too long ago on a scooter dive beyond the second breakdown room.

are you trying to imply I have an ego thing? I can assure you I do not. As for undermining there authority at the shop....I am also an instructor for the military and will never tell a student that what they are being tought is wrong or that I can teach them better...however for a new student that does not understand the dangers of confined overhead diving I would like to think anyone on this site would step up and express the dangers. And I am sorry to say that this particular instructor as told stories about going into CAVES not caverns and claiming that as long as you have a light you are fine. adn as RN stated yes I was talking about the breakdown inside the cave zone. I am by no means an expert cave diver or even a very expireinced one for that matter but even before I became cave trained I would tell my students the dangers of caves. Even at that time not knowing the full extent of the dangers. I feel it is something you can not over emphasise

[fghray1]

Much to do about nothing. The problem will fix its self. Nature is good this way.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Much to do about nothing. The problem will fix its self. Nature is good this way.

Possibly at the expense of access...

[adam0321]

thats a concern for all

[Cleavitt]

Adam: I *think* Wingman is trying to say that the other instructor has the ego problem and that instructor might feel threatened by your cave/technical experience. Therefore, they feel the need to talk down the significance of cave training by implying that cave diving is as simple as holding a light while diving in the Ginnie Ballroom.

It's a shame because it sounds like that instructor is doing a serious disservice to the students.

[JahJahwarrior]

On a somewhat related note, when I talk to friends who are getting into diving, and offer to take them diving somewhere, if they know I cave dive, then almost always they make a point of saying "ok but I'm not going cave diving with you, so don't even try to take me into a cave!"

After spending thousands of dollars on classes and equipment, not to mention hundreds on breathing gas to log hundreds of hours in caves, there is no way I'm taking any OW or cavern diver into a cave. I guess the uneducated public doesn't understand the costs involved with cave training, just like they don't understand the dangers associated with cave diving.