Jeff Hancock's Devils map is available......

[NitroxWarrior]

Sorry, I didnt even know that was his map. I got it from doing a google search!

I thought it was one of bermans old maps.

[Gary]

hers a general idea of what it looks like

That is exactly what Jeff is trying to avoid.

Calm down guys - that's not Jeff's map. That version has been availiable on the internet for many years.

That one is a Steve Berman / Todd Kincaid map. I'm not sure of the copyright status or exact dates.

Jeff's map has considerably more detail.

[NitroxWarrior]

yah, that is what I thought. I just thought I would share the joy of being able to get a general idea of what the farthest reaches of the devils cave system look like lol

[mfascuba]

Rich, I can understand that he doesn't want his work to be pirated. I was not asking for a close up of every detail. It hanging on the wall and the camera 8-10 feet back would suffice. If you can make a map that is worth anything from that image than you are better than I. I will not plop down $120.00 on something I have never seen and have no clue as to the quality. If you remember I had asked for dimensions. This might have helped to know the detail along with your description above. To see your copy would be a little difficult as I live approx. 12 hours away. Yes I could wait until the next time down but would have rather done something sooner as the next time may be 7-8 months. Thats ok if he dosen't want pics it just means that he doesn't need my $120 right now, if ever.

I'm a friend of Jeff's, and as has been noted, he is very serious about the copyright he holds on his work. He has spent about 5 years and countless dives collecting data, and has put more detail on his map than any of the previously published maps of this system. As far as what has been insinuated, I'll come out and say that what is being asked (digital pic) would be a violation of his rights as the author of the work. I'm not a lawyer, but common sense is common sense. No need to be insulted by the responses. As far as the quality and the price, you'll have to be the judge. The map is about the same size as the Berman map, maybe a little longer, but shows much more detail, and all of the cave that's been lined. If you need to wait to see it before you plunk down your cash, that's your decision. If you don't want to pay the asking price, that's OK too. I'll pay the $$, as it would cost me more that his asking price to buy gasoline to drive back and forth to Ginnie to do the number of dives it would take to re-survey the cave. And I won't insult the cartographer by copying his work.

Sorry if I come off a bit short. Been almost a week since I've been in the water.

Time to go diving,

Mark

[bernieflyer]

Rich could you let us know the difference between the $120 map and the next one for $70. I guess they both have the same info, but do both have all the permanent line placement like his old blueprint? I wonder why should i pay $50 more just for an autographed map (wich is copyrighted anyways) when i could get the cheaper one with the same info but (you say) with pretty pictures. Pictures of what by the way????

[FW]

Rich could you let us know the difference between the $120 map and the next one for $70. I guess they both have the same info, but do both have all the permanent line placement like his old blueprint? I wonder why should i pay $50 more just for an autographed map (wich is copyrighted anyways) when i could get the cheaper one with the same info but (you say) with pretty pictures. Pictures of what by the way????

The $70 version is *much* smaller then the $120 version. It is meant to carry with you in the van. The big one is for home planning.

[Sid]

hers a general idea of what it looks like

That is exactly what Jeff is trying to avoid.

I hope (for your sake) he never finds out who you are.

That wasn't JH's map, that was the old SB map prior to the nearly recent SB map on display at Ginnie. Had it been a real JH map we would see the body (and or body pieces) of the copywrite infringer being recovered from the pine trees on CNN and a lot of puzzled CSI guys scratching their heads. Anyway I would highly encourage anyone interested to just buy the map sight unseen even, cause it is the deffinitive resource if you wan't to find your way around devils. Maybe they could post a small exerpt, kinda like the cow map just to show the detail and the accuracy for those skeptical potential buyers, hey it even got thlines drawn in at the right spots. Sid selling his armani pants for some dough to get the big map.

[NitroxWarrior]

I respect copyrhights and I wouldnt post somthing i knew sombody worked hard to make. Steve Berman shared this rough map, its all over the net and I just wanted to show everybody what the map will basicly look like. Just trying to be helpfull, I shouldnt even have to defend myself to you guys anyway...

[Jordan]

Rich's map is autographed by Jeff with a face of a devil that says: Copy and Die!". It's not cow patty, he means it.

Bud, don't be silly. He would get his money back and he would woop their ass. It'd probably look something like this but with more tweetly birds and stars:

[Deep-Thief]

Rich, I can understand that he doesn't want his work to be pirated. I was not asking for a close up of every detail. It hanging on the wall and the camera 8-10 feet back would suffice. If you can make a map that is worth anything from that image than you are better than I. I will not plop down $120.00 on something I have never seen and have no clue as to the quality. If you remember I had asked for dimensions. This might have helped to know the detail along with your description above. To see your copy would be a little difficult as I live approx. 12 hours away. Yes I could wait until the next time down but would have rather done something sooner as the next time may be 7-8 months. Thats ok if he dosen't want pics it just means that he doesn't need my $120 right now, if ever.

I'm a friend of Jeff's, and as has been noted, he is very serious about the copyright he holds on his work. He has spent about 5 years and countless dives collecting data, and has put more detail on his map than any of the previously published maps of this system. As far as what has been insinuated, I'll come out and say that what is being asked (digital pic) would be a violation of his rights as the author of the work. I'm not a lawyer, but common sense is common sense. No need to be insulted by the responses. As far as the quality and the price, you'll have to be the judge. The map is about the same size as the Berman map, maybe a little longer, but shows much more detail, and all of the cave that's been lined. If you need to wait to see it before you plunk down your cash, that's your decision. If you don't want to pay the asking price, that's OK too. I'll pay the $$, as it would cost me more that his asking price to buy gasoline to drive back and forth to Ginnie to do the number of dives it would take to re-survey the cave. And I won't insult the cartographer by copying his work.

Sorry if I come off a bit short. Been almost a week since I've been in the water.

Time to go diving,

Mark

I was not trying to infringe on his rights by asking someone to let me see a pic of it. I was trying to get someone to advertise it so that maybe some people would buy it. You are correct, "common sense is common sense" and common sense says that when you spend 5 years and countless hours producing something you should want to get some of your money back. Now to get your money back you need to promote and advertise it so that people want to buy it. Common sense says you want to take a pic of it and show people that it is of the quality to warrent someone spending $120.

How do you do this and still protect your rights, Well how about that far away pic I talked about. The one that you can't see all the details of it but you can still see it is of quality to frame and mount on your wall. Now lets make a good close up that shows all the details. Put that pic in a picture program and lets crop it down a little. Lets crop it down to say... include from the two entrances to the "lips". Everyone that has dove that system knows from the entrance to the lips so who cares if you let them see that. Now we can see the quality that has gone into the work and nothing important was given away for free. You now have people seeing your product and you are enticing them to want to buy a copy.

As for being insulted from the responses. Hell yes I am insulted and offended. Someone insinuates and implies that I am trying to STEAL and pirate someones copyrighted work. Wouldn't you be insulted. Oh thats right Rich wasn't insinuating anything, Bull $#!@. If you are going to do it then at least have the balls to admit it.

I too am sorry for sounding short and irritated. I am just shaking my head ruefully at this whole thing.