Less then 14 days
14 days to 6 months
Greater then 6 months
Cave Diver Training Length
Just a simple poll to see some information on training length of the cavedivers on CDF. No sway either way, just asking for information for our own pursuit of education (since the Cave certifying agencies won't provide this information).
This poll is PRIVATE, so hopefully more people will participate.
Joe
Originally Posted by Richard Pyle
I did cavern way too early, then got out of diving during high school when sports took over. Took Intro and apprentice down the road within about 6 months and around 40 dives, then took full about 6-7 months after apprentice and about 50 dives.
I would like to see cavern+intro and apprentice+full combined. It confuses me how we can teach someone that a cavern can become a cave, yet someone who's a cavern diver cannot enter a cave...basically we're saying that you're only safe to dive a cave in an emergency situation? Also I don't see why apprentice divers can do 2 jumps but not 3, or dive stages. I think the better route is to give a full education as soon as possible and allow the diver to dive within their comfort zone. The intro phase is one I don't like, but a "necessary evil" to gain experience to base your comfort zone off of once you earn a full cave rating. It keeps you on mainline so you can experience a variety of cave, minor silt outs in places like Telford, but nothing all that nasty in most cases.
Looking back, I say take the courses 2 at a time, with about 50 dives between cavern+intro and apprentice+full. The longer you wait, the easier it becomes to break rules. How many "experienced" intro divers do we have doing jumps, or apprentice divers stage diving? I'm all for mentoring, and gaining experience on easier dives at the level above your current level, but one issue I see is that sometimes mentors are just diving people up a level and not teaching. I was talking to a NAUI Cave 1 diver just recently who's doing deco, stage diving, solo diving, and the dive plans involving visual jumps as well as blind traverses. I got lucky and had a few C2 divers dive me up a level through various stages of my training (intro diving 1/3rds and easy jumps, apprentice staging), but I do unfortunately see now how the example we set by doing that has a negative reaction with those who aren't surrounded by qualified mentors.
First, FTR, I'm still Cavern.
I'm taking a little break between Cavern and Intro. to work on skills, but I hope to do Apprentice + Full together.
I would absolutely agree with you about the "2 at a time" course structure and I was trying to do that for myself. But one of my issues is that I'm doing all the cave training in "doubles" and "drysuit" (I did Cavern that way) since that's how I expect to cave dive on a regular basis upon reaching "full," and since I already have Adv. Nitrox/Deco in that config. from the same instructor. The problem is that Intro (with doubles) is time limited. I'd have only 1-1.5 years in between Intro and Apprentice/Full to "get comfortable enough" to go for Full Cave. And in my case, that might not be enough for me, unless I can get my instructor to re-cert. me for Intro with doubles.
So, unless I can make that happen, I'll probably stay at Cavern level a bit longer (no time limit) until my skills rise to the level that I can get all of it done at once (ie. 1/4 hero --> hero). I know it's unrealistic to expect that, and the correct place to take that break is between Intro and Apprentice, as you suggest. But when you're in "doubles," it gets a bit more complicated.
I understand why the time limit is there (for both Intro/Doubles *and* Apprentice). I guess I just wish the agencies would have a little more faith/trust in my ability to make the right choices for myself. But I suppose, given some of the problems we've seen with people exceeding their training, it has to be that way...
... and I disagree just as strongly. There are four courses with new skills and info at each level. I believe each course should be taken, and then skills polished, before the next level is tackled.
I also think cavern should be taken in a single unless the diver has considerable experience in doubles. There's a lot of new stuff to be learned, and it's no time to be learning a new configuration on top of that. Jacket BC, AIR2, however you've been diving in open water, should be your setup for the cavern course.
Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.
An excellent point indeed and perhaps a bit of a double edged sword I suppose. One diver coming from the warm clear waters of the gulf stream used to diving the jacket BC and the air II might be treated one way. Another diver that has only dove doubles for years and hails from the NE or the Pac NW, familiar with diving extremely low vis and high currents may well be a horse of a different color.
However, when I worked with students, it always seemed to boil down to their attitudes. Those that come in with a degree of humility, and a willingness to learn "generally" seemed to be the easiest to teach and came out better in the end.
I agree that it should depend on the individual involved.
I took Cavern and Intro together after about 15 years of doubles diving and about 10 years of technical decompression diving. Doing Cavern as well as intro in doubles was a no brainer decision as switching back to a single tank would have been a major PITA and counter productive as it makes much more sense to train the way you plan to fight, so to speak.
However, I also took my Cavern class with an experienced OW instructor in a single tank and poodle jacket. She did ok but she herself noted and commented on the rock solid stability doubles can give after buddying with me in lights out line and air share drills. She recognized the value in getting proficient in doubles before returing for Intro.
At the other end of the spectrum we also had a gentleman in the class who attempted the class making his first dives in doubles and it was an unmitigated disaster. The instructor should not have allowed it in the first place and should have switched him back into a single tank after the first dive or two when the problem was obviously not going to be resolved in the next day and a half. In a single, he may of at least had a chance of successfully completing Cavern.
Neither of my class mates advanced to Intro on that same trip - but neither of them were ready for Intro either. As more or less a transition from technical wreck diving, I did both Cavern and Intro in one 4 day session and was told I was ready for full cave if I wanted to pursue it at that point. I chose to wait a year or so however to build experience at the intro level and polish my newly acquired intro to cave skills prior to adding in the complex navigation skills that come with Apprentice and Full.
When it came time to finish full cave, I again chose to do it in a single 4 day session as I was going into it with a reasonable degree of experience at the intro level.
In that regard I agree with Sludge that there is a great deal of value in consolidating newly acquired skills before moving on to additonal skills. How that applies to combining Cavern and Intro or combining Apprentice and Full then depends on:
1) how many of the Cavern skills are reallly "new", and
2) how much experience the diver has at the Intro level to provide a solid base for the subsequent full cave skills.
I do know a few zero to hero divers, but the smart ones made a decision to stay very conservative and dive at essentially the intro level until they acquired significantly more experience.
Specifically, what skills are different between Apprentice and Full Cave? Having taken each course, I don't have an answer, and I don't even think it's clear in the training manuals. The only thing I've heard is the level of mastery expected by the instructor.
Complex navigation, which I certainly consider a skill, and longer deco, which involves possibly carrying more bottles, which I think is a skill, and more gas switches.
Which is what I'll be doing, at least, after: Cavern & Intro/Doubles... But, in your opinion, what are the significant skills differences between "Apprentice" and "full" that need to be "polished" before moving onto "full?" Intuitively, I see significant, well defined break points between Cavern/Intro and Intro/Apprentice, but I'm having some trouble seeing it for Apprentice/Full. And again, since Apprentice is time limited, how much time (or how many Apprentice level dives) should one have before moving on?
See, I would posit that this person should get familar with doubles in OW. Then take cavern in doubles. This is not suitable gear for a beginner to stumble into a cave with - and many caverns can turn into caves very fast.
Oh and it was about 18months from intro to full cave for me.
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