Cave Diver Training Length

[LiteHedded]

since when did we start exporting caves? I thought we had the market cornered

[LCF]

I think Ainslie, as usual, has a very good point.

I did Cavern/Intro in October of 2007. I then did about 20 cave dives in Florida, and went back and did GUE Cave 1 (which is basically cavern and intro combined) in May of 2008. It was a much more extensive and demanding class than my original class, and I learned a lot from it and was glad I did it. I then did 89 cave dives over the next year plus, starting with simple dives and taking on more responsibility with each trip. I got some mentoring from a variety of people during this period, to improve technique, and the cave taught me some lessons, too

I then went to take Cave 2 in Florida, where I learned that waiting and doing a whole bunch of largely uneventful cave diving did not serve me well in being well-prepped for remembering all the emergency protocols I had been taught but had never had occasion to use. I agree with Andrew that continuous instruction would have avoided that, but I disagree that that is the best approach. Instead, I think the higher level classes should have built into them some review time. How many people have had occasion to do a lost line drill, or lost buddy drill, or take a team of three out air-sharing, swapping sides of the line, during their normal diving?

At any rate, I did not pass that class, and went on to take NACD Full Cave in Mexico a few months later and passed that with no problems. So my training went from October of 2007 to November of 2009, and I made a mistake by waiting as long as I did to move up.

I DO like the GUE approach of having people master doubles, buoyancy, trim and non-silting propulsion in OW before presenting for cave training, though. It sure makes things smoother. We took our original Cavern class with someone who had not done that, and who found some of the basic drills (like no mask swimming) very challenging, where we just shrugged and said, "Oh, this again." Cave time, for those of us who don't live in cave country, is too precious to be spent learning things that can be learned elsewhere, IMHO.

[DA Aquamaster]

I DO like the GUE approach of having people master doubles, buoyancy, trim and non-silting propulsion in OW before presenting for cave training, though. It sure makes things smoother. We took our original Cavern class with someone who had not done that, and who found some of the basic drills (like no mask swimming) very challenging, where we just shrugged and said, "Oh, this again." Cave time, for those of us who don't live in cave country, is too precious to be spent learning things that can be learned elsewhere, IMHO.

I like it too. In the real world it is also not a strictly GUE concept. Separate from whatever agency standards exist, some instructors expect the same level of proficiency before progressing to more demanding technical training.

Back when I started technical dive training the instructor's expectation was at least 100 dives with at least 30 to 100-130' along with proficiency in doubles and low silt techniques. Everyone in the class met that minimum and it allowed the class to truly work on advanced techniques and on the thinking/problem solving portions of the training.

I will note however, that there are a lot more technical diving instructors now and a larger percentage of technical diving instructors who will take relatively unskilled OW divers (and their money) and attempt to turn them into technical divers.

In that regard,where GUE excels is in course standards that formalize those entry level expectations for technical training.

[Michael Stroeck]

Ainslie has a point here - I always wonder what's so great about doing 200 dives between Intro and Full.

Apart from that: I find the emphasis on number of dives completely misguided. What actually keeps you safe are the dives you don't do and practice. Attitude, knowing your limits, keeping your ego out of it, realizing that skills deteriorate unless you use them. 200 sightseeing dives along the main line in Ginnie will definitely not make anyone a safer diver...

[RN]

I think Ainslie, as usual, has a very good point.

I did Cavern/Intro in October of 2007. I then did about 20 cave dives in Florida, and went back and did GUE Cave 1 (which is basically cavern and intro combined) in May of 2008. It was a much more extensive and demanding class than my original class, and I learned a lot from it and was glad I did it. I then did 89 cave dives over the next year plus, starting with simple dives and taking on more responsibility with each trip. I got some mentoring from a variety of people during this period, to improve technique, and the cave taught me some lessons, too

I then went to take Cave 2 in Florida, where I learned that waiting and doing a whole bunch of largely uneventful cave diving did not serve me well in being well-prepped for remembering all the emergency protocols I had been taught but had never had occasion to use.

Why not?? Between Intro and Full, I practiced emergency protocols on a regular basis, not only in the caves, but also in the Arizona lakes.

I agree with Andrew that continuous instruction would have avoided that, but I disagree that that is the best approach. Instead, I think the higher level classes should have built into them some review time. How many people have had occasion to do a lost line drill, or lost buddy drill, or take a team of three out air-sharing, swapping sides of the line, during their normal diving?

Easy to do if you just put it into your dive plan. Maybe I'm the exception, but I did practice those skills in between courses.

[Sludge]

200 sightseeing dives along the main line in Ginnie will definitely not make anyone a safer diver...

I disagree. All of my dives are sightseeing dives. I've had things happen that either totally messed with my head because they were in the first hundred cave dives, or that were non-events after I had five hundred or so.

Last year I had an episode with a flooded, stuck-on scooter. Had something like that happened when I was a relatively new cave diver you could have just shot me on the spot. But it was just an annoyance because of all the sightseeing dives I've made.

As my open water instructor used to say, there's no substitute for bottom time.

[LCF]

Rob, in retrospect, we should have done drills in OW to stay current. Nobody I know does. Some people are smart enough to hook up with their team and do them prior to the next class; I didn't have that opportunity.

I'm not talking, by the way, about S-drills or valve drills or deploying backup lights. I'm talking about blackout line following in teams of three and moving the team across the line, and things like that. We all keep current on our basic drills.

[jeandiver]

I actually played golf once - I saw no need to repeat it. It seemed like a cruel psychological test of the ability to withstand boredom.

And I think I'll avoid any Tiger style explorations - the thumping he got from his wife is nothing compared to what I'd get from mine!

Mike

You got that right ... (ROFL)
Couldn't hide in a cave either.... She'd find you , fer sure.

Beano

[Diverlee]

I took my second cavern class in March of 98 then finished the rest in May in Mexico. Even though I had the card I didn't start doing kick ass dives. Progressivly over 4 years I practiced skills and progressive penatration. It helped that my dive buddy was intro all that time but we both learned. He went on to get full cave finally. Then we started diving with other people and going to different places. It was a shock, I must say, learning in Mexico and then diving in Florida caves! I wished I had learned in Florida.

[lamont]

I then went to take Cave 2 in Florida, where I learned that waiting and doing a whole bunch of largely uneventful cave diving did not serve me well in being well-prepped for remembering all the emergency protocols I had been taught but had never had occasion to use. I agree with Andrew that continuous instruction would have avoided that, but I disagree that that is the best approach. Instead, I think the higher level classes should have built into them some review time. How many people have had occasion to do a lost line drill, or lost buddy drill, or take a team of three out air-sharing, swapping sides of the line, during their normal diving?

In my C2 course in MX with fred+danny we did review of lights out gas sharing exits on the surface and danny covered all the details really well, and the only hard part about shoving my OOG buddy through the cave was realizing that the reason we weren't moving was that my tanks were stuck in the restriction...