Cave Diver Training Length

[Tegg]

Just a simple poll to see some information on training length of the cavedivers on CDF. No sway either way, just asking for information for our own pursuit of education (since the Cave certifying agencies won't provide this information).

This poll is PRIVATE, so hopefully more people will participate.

[jj1987]

I did cavern way too early, then got out of diving during high school when sports took over. Took Intro and apprentice down the road within about 6 months and around 40 dives, then took full about 6-7 months after apprentice and about 50 dives.

I would like to see cavern+intro and apprentice+full combined. It confuses me how we can teach someone that a cavern can become a cave, yet someone who's a cavern diver cannot enter a cave...basically we're saying that you're only safe to dive a cave in an emergency situation? Also I don't see why apprentice divers can do 2 jumps but not 3, or dive stages. I think the better route is to give a full education as soon as possible and allow the diver to dive within their comfort zone. The intro phase is one I don't like, but a "necessary evil" to gain experience to base your comfort zone off of once you earn a full cave rating. It keeps you on mainline so you can experience a variety of cave, minor silt outs in places like Telford, but nothing all that nasty in most cases.

Looking back, I say take the courses 2 at a time, with about 50 dives between cavern+intro and apprentice+full. The longer you wait, the easier it becomes to break rules. How many "experienced" intro divers do we have doing jumps, or apprentice divers stage diving? I'm all for mentoring, and gaining experience on easier dives at the level above your current level, but one issue I see is that sometimes mentors are just diving people up a level and not teaching. I was talking to a NAUI Cave 1 diver just recently who's doing deco, stage diving, solo diving, and the dive plans involving visual jumps as well as blind traverses. I got lucky and had a few C2 divers dive me up a level through various stages of my training (intro diving 1/3rds and easy jumps, apprentice staging), but I do unfortunately see now how the example we set by doing that has a negative reaction with those who aren't surrounded by qualified mentors.

[Mark Vlahos]

I checked less than 14 days although to tell the truth it was 16 days.

Even though I got a "full cave" card I chose to dive at the intro level for quite a while. I moved from sixths to thirds first, then added navigation skills along the way. As I have added navigation I have done it slowly, and am now still imposing personal limits on just how complex the navigation is that I am willing to do. Still very conservative by many divers standards.

Mark Vlahos

[temrich]

My training took over 3 years and I dont regret that one bit! I had 2 great instuctor along the way and was taught plenty. I took cavern, went back to Ohio and practiced for a year. Did a private intro, practice for another year and came back to do my full. Moved here 2 years later to be closer to what I love!

[mag3]

I would like to see cavern+intro and apprentice+full combined. It confuses me how we can teach someone that a cavern can become a cave, yet someone who's a cavern diver cannot enter a cave...basically we're saying that you're only safe to dive a cave in an emergency situation? Also I don't see why apprentice divers can do 2 jumps but not 3, or dive stages. I think the better route is to give a full education as soon as possible and allow the diver to dive within their comfort zone. The intro phase is one I don't like, but a "necessary evil" to gain experience to base your comfort zone off of once you earn a full cave rating. It keeps you on mainline so you can experience a variety of cave, minor silt outs in places like Telford, but nothing all that nasty in most cases.

Looking back, I say take the courses 2 at a time, with about 50 dives between cavern+intro and apprentice+full. The longer you wait, the easier it becomes to break rules.

First, FTR, I'm still Cavern. I'm taking a little break between Cavern and Intro. to work on skills, but I hope to do Apprentice + Full together.

I would absolutely agree with you about the "2 at a time" course structure and I was trying to do that for myself. But one of my issues is that I'm doing all the cave training in "doubles" and "drysuit" (I did Cavern that way) since that's how I expect to cave dive on a regular basis upon reaching "full," and since I already have Adv. Nitrox/Deco in that config. from the same instructor. The problem is that Intro (with doubles) is time limited. I'd have only 1-1.5 years in between Intro and Apprentice/Full to "get comfortable enough" to go for Full Cave. And in my case, that might not be enough for me, unless I can get my instructor to re-cert. me for Intro with doubles.

So, unless I can make that happen, I'll probably stay at Cavern level a bit longer (no time limit) until my skills rise to the level that I can get all of it done at once (ie. 1/4 hero --> hero). I know it's unrealistic to expect that, and the correct place to take that break is between Intro and Apprentice, as you suggest. But when you're in "doubles," it gets a bit more complicated.

I understand why the time limit is there (for both Intro/Doubles *and* Apprentice). I guess I just wish the agencies would have a little more faith/trust in my ability to make the right choices for myself. But I suppose, given some of the problems we've seen with people exceeding their training, it has to be that way...

[Sludge]

I would absolutely agree with you about the "2 at a time" course structure

... and I disagree just as strongly. There are four courses with new skills and info at each level. I believe each course should be taken, and then skills polished, before the next level is tackled.

I also think cavern should be taken in a single unless the diver has considerable experience in doubles. There's a lot of new stuff to be learned, and it's no time to be learning a new configuration on top of that. Jacket BC, AIR2, however you've been diving in open water, should be your setup for the cavern course.

[diveconjeff]

... I also think cavern should be taken in a single unless the diver has considerable experience in doubles. There's a lot of new stuff to be learned, and it's no time to be learning a new configuration on top of that. Jacket BC, AIR2, however you've been diving in open water, should be your setup for the cavern course.

An excellent point indeed and perhaps a bit of a double edged sword I suppose. One diver coming from the warm clear waters of the gulf stream used to diving the jacket BC and the air II might be treated one way. Another diver that has only dove doubles for years and hails from the NE or the Pac NW, familiar with diving extremely low vis and high currents may well be a horse of a different color.

However, when I worked with students, it always seemed to boil down to their attitudes. Those that come in with a degree of humility, and a willingness to learn "generally" seemed to be the easiest to teach and came out better in the end.

[jj1987]

... and I disagree just as strongly. There are four courses with new skills and info at each level.

Specifically, what skills are different between Apprentice and Full Cave? Having taken each course, I don't have an answer, and I don't even think it's clear in the training manuals. The only thing I've heard is the level of mastery expected by the instructor.

[mag3]

... and I disagree just as strongly. There are four courses with new skills and info at each level. I believe each course should be taken, and then skills polished, before the next level is tackled.

Which is what I'll be doing, at least, after: Cavern & Intro/Doubles... But, in your opinion, what are the significant skills differences between "Apprentice" and "full" that need to be "polished" before moving onto "full?" Intuitively, I see significant, well defined break points between Cavern/Intro and Intro/Apprentice, but I'm having some trouble seeing it for Apprentice/Full. And again, since Apprentice is time limited, how much time (or how many Apprentice level dives) should one have before moving on?

[Marc Bryan]

Specifically, what skills are different between Apprentice and Full Cave? Having taken each course, I don't have an answer, and I don't even think it's clear in the training manuals. The only thing I've heard is the level of mastery expected by the instructor.

Complex navigation, which I certainly consider a skill, and longer deco, which involves possibly carrying more bottles, which I think is a skill, and more gas switches.