Petition

[CaveBuddy95]

I see your point however I disagree on one key point, unsuspecting OW clients have no idea about the difference between cavern/cave and really do not know it is well beyond the training of any OW divers, they are putting they're lives and trust in the hands of instructors who are supposed to uphold the safety standards set forth by PADI.
.....

Since facilities are advertising themselves to be safe and under the guise of PADI, customers are expecting quality, safe and knowledgeable instructors, I think it is PADI's duty to make sure they are involved in safe diving practices.

We will be sending out these letters to al LDS in the DR in spanish and english, in a link I will be including "a deceptively easy way to die" and also some accident reports with "guided" tours turning to disaster.
One report in particular has the daughter of one of the victims asking LDS's to stop doing this.

If on top of this PADI were to remind LDS about the dangers it would really hit home I think and make a major difference in the DR.

I sincerely hope they act on this.

I understand the "non suspecting" client putting their life/trust into the guide's hands. Although it is scary to think people can be that ignorant to say the less!
Remind me, do you have LDS advertising for this cave tours? If so, take a pic and send it to Quality Managment at PADI HQ in California. And if you are PADI member and witness or can relay detailed info of the dive and names of divers ( I think) send it too! Or find someone that can.
QAs (Quality Assurance report) work well and PADI take these very seriously.
Steve Mortel is the Cave Diving specialist for PADI and also Training Manager (I think).

On the other hand if a LDS represent a huge income for PADI (5*IDCs and so on) it will be difficult to make them see through. But the importance is in what you are doing, at least you can have a good conscious and I guess we all hope for the best!
Keep it up Phil, the more the heat is on the more the chances they will listen.

Saludos,

[phillip1]

At this point I don't want to get any LDS in trouble, I think they have taken us more or less seriously, we have installed warning signs, given out informational letters in Bayahibe so I hope that this will work and they will stop.
However if after the signs, letter etc.. we find out that a particular LDS is still taking clients past the cavern zone I will notify PADI of the the LDS and hopefully they will get sanctioned.

[Neptuno]

I understand the "non suspecting" client putting their life/trust into the guide's hands. Although it is scary to think people can be that ignorant to say the less!

have you ever done ocean diving in charter boats? I mean not privately rented, just regular I go do a dive charter trips with people from all over.

if not, just go there and after that you will see a whole different world of diving...

[CaveBuddy95]

have you ever done ocean diving in charter boats? I mean not privately rented, just regular I go do a dive charter trips with people from all over.

if not, just go there and after that you will see a whole different world of diving...

I'm not sure I see what you mean. Can you be a bit more clear?
Thanks

[phillip1]

"Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95
I understand the "non suspecting" client putting their life/trust into the guide's hands. Although it is scary to think people can be that ignorant to say the less!"

I disagree with you on that one, if you are a newly certified OW diver and you know absolutely nothing about caves and cave diving (as is the case with 99.9% of people)I think that it is not ignorance that OW divers trust an experienced PADI instructor when he says it's safe to do a cave "tour".

The OW divers have trusted the same instructors for boat diving, reefs, wrecks, deep and the instructors have most probably stressed high PADI safety guidelines and always to be trained in the type of diving you do etc..

Before I got into cave diving I knew little to nothing about it, and nothing about the safety guidelines.
Thank god for the warning sign in El Dudu, had it not been there I might have gone in a bit further, had I been on a cave "tour" and no sign was there I would have gone in, it really does not look dangerous, so I do not think OW are ignorant when they trust and experienced PADI instructor who goes into a cave and thinks it is safe.
I think these instructors are intentionally misrepresenting the safety of such cave "tours" knowing full well it is far beyond the safe cavern zone and well outside the training of OW divers and they're own training too.

To the credit of all DR North Coast dive shops, they never take clients past the cavern zone, I have not heard of anyone ever doing that, it is I think thanks to the warning sign there and also the fact that there is actually a large safe cavern zone there too, unlike the Bayahibe & Santo Domingo caves. (if there is no cavern zone, don't go period!!!)


So no I do not think it is ignorance on the part of the OW diver to trust an experienced dive instructor when they sign up for a cave "tour", I think it is dishonest, deceitful, dangerous and sometimes deadly and a blatant disregard for ALL safety guidelines set forth by ALL training agencies.

These irresponsible instructors who are willing to gamble on people's lives and safety to make a quick buck, are selling themselves as safe and reputable and are using the PADI name.
People are expecting high safety standards and since they have come to trust PADI, they are assuming that these cave tours are safe.

And while all this is going on PADI knowing full well this is going on, sits around and so far has done absolutely nothing, not even lift a finger to try and help to prevent a tragic accident from happening.

[CaveBuddy95]

Ok, so much for me!
I see where you are going now. With the trend PADI is taking with their new cave/sm oriented courses maybe you come at the right time to help them realise that if they don't do anything there will be tears.
Let's hope so!

Saludos,

[phillip1]

If I were PADI top brass I would start a big overhead diving safety campaign, with all the mainstream media channels PADI has they could make a really big impact, save people's lives and make themselves look really good in the process as upholders (is that a word?) of high safety standards, I just don't understand why they so far choose to do nothing.

I don't know if I am out of line for posting this If I am I sincerely apologize and the Admin should remove this but I think Mrs Forrester wrote this letter in the hopes that LDS's would read it and would stop taking OW customers past the cavern zone and to help prevent a future accident. I do not know if the instructor and LDS in question were PADI or not but that does not matter, it is what PADI LDS's are doing in the DR.

I am also posting this because I suspect PADI people are monitoring this thread and it is a compelling letter and a tragic unnecessary accident and is EXACTLY what is going on in the DR right now, so hopefully PADI will read this and maybe be moved to help.

AN OPEN LETTER FROM A DISTRAUGHT DAUGHTER

My Mother, Judith Marshall died along with two other people on August 17th, 1995 at the Temple of Doom near Quintana Roo, Mexico. She was a certified open water diver. She was very interested in visiting the cenotes because of their beauty and their archeological significance. She was a grandmother, mother, sister, friend and teacher. Many people will remember her, especially her children and the little children she taught throughout 20 years of teaching.

The dive guide, who was contracted by the dive store, led a group of eight, past the cavern zone into the cave. The party included the dive store owner. The divestore owner abandoned the group and did not complete the dive. The dive store owner and divemaster were absolutely unqualified to organize and lead a cave dive. They were not certified cave divers.

They led my mother and the other divers to believe that they were qualified instructors who would protect them. The divestore owner and divemaster made terrible mistakes which led to the deaths of three people and could have killed the other divers as well. The scuba diving community has worked hard in the last few years to make diving safer in Mexico.

This tragedy was the result o f the divestore's lack of knowledge and very poor judgment. They should never have gone past the cavern zone into the cave. Cave diving is only for certified cave divers. If you are involved in any capacity with scuba diving, please check the certification of anyone involved in each dive. If you are a landowner, please prohibit unqualified divers from diving on your property. If you are a dive store owner, check the certification of your customers as well as your employees. If you are an Instructor, please do not attempt dives which are beyond your level of certification.

I am writing this letter in remembrance of my Mom. I will miss here more than I can ever say. She'll never see her granddaughter grow up. I hope that writing this letter influences someone to do his or her part to prevent another tragedy like this one. Out of respect for my Mom's wonderful, generous life and her tragic death, please do your part to prevent another tragedy.

Most Sincerely, Jennifer Forrester

[Skorpiov]

Would it be a good idea to start a petition, signed by cave divers, OW divers, instructors and anyone who cares to try to get PADI, NAUI, CMAS etc.. and any other OW training agency to send out a blanket email to all they're instructors worldwide reminiding them of the dangers of untrained overhead diving and the limitations of cavern/cave?

So you are sending letters to all the agencies? If you are having a problem with specific LDS's in DR, then it make sense to report to PADI, if thats the appropriate agancy. If you are using a specific series of incidents in a specific area to try to berrate PADI into submission, I can see how they might not react or even respond to that type confrontation. If you want to truly make a difference, a little diplomacy would be a good idea.

All OW instructors from all agencies should be informed and use good judgement when training or diving with OW students. Cavern and Cave training should be pre-req's for any incursions. What it PADI were to agree to respond as you wish and someone dies the next week due to an SSI or NAUI instructor making bad choices. Ar we then negligent in our mission to save divers because we didnt uniformly present the request to all agencies?

I hope this isnt taken as an affront to what your intentions are. I dont think its a bad idea for PADI to communicate a message regarding cavern and caving. I just think we would get a better response if it were cast as non-partisan to the entire community. What do I know?

[phillip1]

I agree with you 100%' Right now I am out of action for a few weeks, but I intend to send the same letter to all ow agencies. However in my experience in the DR it is 100% PADI instructors who are to blame. I was only asking for help from PADI on a very specific location, DR, and even as I mentioned earlier spoke with the PADI top brass (they were all here a year ago doing some sort of big PADI meeting), but I realized they really do not care at all.
We are doing our own cave safety education program in the DR, installing signs, talking to all the lds & instructors about the hazards of cave diving etc..
The sad truth is that even the cave diving community in the DR, the DR cave diving foundation and the few cave instructors here, do not care at all either and in all the years this dangerous diving has been going on they have done zero, absolutely nothing about it.
So we are so far a small group of very concerned DR cave divers and we will be doing all the safety and prevention work ourselves.