Petition

[phillip1]

Below is a copy of the letter we will be sending out to all DR dives shops.
The LDS in Cabrera and the north coast never take OW past the cavern zone in El Dudu (there has been a sign there for a long time), but to be fair we are sending this out to ALL dive shops regardless.

Imagine how much weight and what impact it would have if PADI & co were to send out such a letter to all they're instructors worldwide!
It would really help in the safety issue, but so far zero as it appears they do not care.





An Open Letter to Dive Shops and Training Centers


It has come to our attention that some dive centers and schools who are leading guided dives with clients to some of the following caves Manatial d’El Chicho in Bayahibe, El Dudu in Cabrera, Cueva Taina in Santo Domingo, Hoyo de Floro in Macao, have been exceeding recognized and well established recreational and cavern dive limits.

All certification agencies worldwide are very clear on the differences between Cavern Diving and Cave Diving, who is qualified to lead and teach Cavern and Cave Diving, and the prerequisites for participation in such tours and training.

Cavern Diving limits are:
1. Daylight and free ascent zone of cavern
2. 40 Meters/130 ft. linear distance from surface. Some orgs say 60 Meters/200 ft.
3. Maximum depth not to exceed 21 Meters/70 ft. Some orgs say 30 Meters/100 ft.
In addition, the cavern tour leader is to have at least Divemaster and full cave certifications and be wearing full cave gear. Further, all tour participants are to carry equipment for a cavern dive, which includes reels and lights. Finally, the dive team must deploy a reel from the exit providing a continuous guideline to follow in case visibility is accidently lost allowing all divers to exit the cave safely.

It is of the utmost importance that you understand that:

NO AMOUNT OF PREVIOUS OPENWATER DIVING EXPERIENCE OR TRAINING CAN ADEQUATELY PREPARE YOU FOR CAVE DIVING.

We also would like to point out that clients who sign up for a guided cave dive are assuming that it is safe to do so and that the guide is adequately trained and qualified to guide the dive. This is not always the case and this practice is far from safe!!!

Diving past the day light zone or 40 meters from the exit, with no formal Cave Diving training and Cave Diving equipment is extremely dangerous and it is only a matter of time before someone dies.

Our purpose is not to assign blame. Rather, case some light on and provide information about the dangers of Cave Diving without proper training and equipment. There have been of over 400 deaths in caves, almost all of which were untrained divers in caves exactly like those. We have attached a few typical cave diving accident reports for you to read.

In all cave diving areas of the world there are warning signs such as the one printed on the following page. These signs are placed in an appropriate location in the cavern zone and before the cave zone to warn untrained divers of the dangers of Cave Diving. To help avoid any unnecessary deaths and accidents in the island’s caves, we will be placing such warning signs in all caves and also starting an information program design to inform schools and divers of the dangers of Cave Diving without proper training and equipment.

This is a recommendation. If after reading this letter you choose to ignore the potential dangers involved in Cave Diving, and you still intend to dive past the limit, please do so on your own; do not bring clients with you. They are putting all they’re trust and they’re lives in your hands. We urge you to take this warning seriously; with the current situation it is only a matter of time before someone dies in these caves, let it not be you or one of you customer.

Thank you

[Neptuno]

well, it was funny to see this guy signing the petition lol
Penis enlargement said 1 day ago (VERIFIED)
I support this petition.

[Walter Pickel]

I hope this petition will help to get PADI & co to act.

Members of the PADI Training Dept. are already monitoring this thread.

[Neptuno]

cool, hopefully they will get more serious about the topic, it is really scary here in DR to see several divers, I went across a team of at least 7 divers with a single tank, after a hard to find jump, in a heavy halocline, and they had no jump reel, only little lights, etc., like here I bet is happening all over the world, the agencies should be severe with this "guides" taking customers inside caves

[phillip1]

I hope PADI is monitoring this thread.
See PADI, people are walking into 5 star PADI dive shops and are expecting safe instructors who are adhering to PADI safety standards.
PADI has told me that they are not responsible if the instructors are not taking clients on PADI sanctioned diving courses.

I think that PADI is responsible for making sure that all they're affiliated dive shops and instructors are strictly adhering to safety standards set forth by PADI, and sending out an informational email like the one I posted is really NOT a big deal, in fact it would take 5 minutes to send it to all dive shops worldwide and maybe 1 minute to the one's in the DR.

It's not like we are asking for personal phone calls to dive shop owners, just a simple email reminder on the limitations of cavern diving.

I am sure that Dunkin Doughnuts makes sure that they're franchises are up to standard, especially if some concerned people are informing them of unsafe food handling in certain areas!!!.

Now the problem here is that PADI knows full well about this problem yet they so far have chosen to do nothing, it has been almost 2 years since I very clearly notified PADI by email to various high levels people there and spoke to the top brass about this in the DR about a year ago too.

I am not asking PADI to reprimand or sanction anyone but just to send out a similar letter to the one I previously posted, what is the big deal?
PADI goes on and on about safety guidelines for how to run a dive center, yet does nothing when said dive center is taking divers way past the cavern zone.

Such a letter sent out by PADI would I think have a very big impact and in addition to warning signs would make a huge difference in the DR and worldwide.

I still cannot understand why they have not already done this, if anything it would make PADI look good and since they are supposedly worried about any litigation it would actually if anything get them even more off the hook should, god forbid, any accidents happen.

I hope PADI is monitoring this; Would you guys at PADI feel safe sending your wife and kids to the DR for a nice dive holiday, have them sign up for a nice cave tour at a local PADI 5 star dive center, they are such beautiful cave systems what could possibly go wrong? especially Cueva Taina, and are you sure that the PADI instructors are up to standard and would never go beyond the cavern zone, you expect that kind of quality and high standard of safety when you see the PADI logo don't you? would you not feel much better about this vacation had you sent out an email reminding the PADI affiliated LDS about the cavern limitations?

We are just a small group of concerned cave divers so to most LDS we are kind of annoying with our warnings and they don't take us really seriously, so I sincerely hope that PADI finally decides to act, it would make a huge difference.

Thank you

[CaveBuddy95]

I think what is involved here is what you learn when you become a PADI OWSI (open water scuba instructor) and it is called "Duty of Care"
It is some sort of liability between parts involved in an activity that has some risks. As a dive leader or educator you must show and do everything in your power to avoid an accident to happen.
One example would be:
At a water entree (that you already know to make it simple) you have to have your clients/students do the Giant stride in water deep enough so they don't risk to hurt themselves.
If it is a new spot, you will have to enter yourself first to make sure, duty of care, that there is NO risks for them.
Easy to see where it applies for Cavern & Cave Diving!


A bit different during the DSAT Tec Deep course where you are informing your clients/students that this kind of diving can kill you.
You are obligated to inform the clients of the possibility of getting injured and therefore it is their decision to go further.
A bit different but not much.

So I think there is DUTY OF CARE involved and that actors should take there responsabilities.


Saludos,

[Neptuno]

Phill, I think you are inspired today

as we were talking in another thread, I think forrest mentioned that the warning sign might be copyrighted by padi, talking to old timers several years ago if I recall well padi was the first agency certifying cave divers, so why now are they looking in another direction when somebody talk to them about safety in overhead environments?

when I became an instructor for padi they made me learn by memory a big book full of standards and rules for safety, they ask me to assist to member forums every year to keep up in the new standards, and so on about instructor attitudes, etc.
I think when an instructor(and/or divecenter) is violating safety standards a warning should be issued, or in this case, a formal reminder to all the schools about their limits could be even better. As a main rule divers(included instructors) have to dive inside their limit of training right?, so why do they go beyond it taking people that trust their lives in their hands? is not that a double violation? multiply that for the number of divers that go in the same time.

basically, if you, by yourself are ignoring the standards, the safety rules, your training limits, etc. and decide to go beyond your safety zone, is ok.. go on, BUT, do not take innocents with you, because when they pay you as a guide, they are trusting you, and they assume you are qualified for what you are doing and they assume that is very safe, is true, you will make a few more pesos if everything goes right, but also you can kill a whole family, which could be your family like in the example Phillipe posted above.



well, don't forget to sign the petition.

[phillip1]

I agree, I would go even further imagine this scenario (god forbid)

A husband wife and son go to a PADI 5 star facility and instead of going to an OW dive they decide it would be cool to dive the advertised cave "tour".
The LDS requires only that they be AOW which they are, the unsuspecting family know nothing about the dangers of such a dive and assume and rightfully so that since this is a PADI dive center, they are upholding the PADI safety guidelines.
They follow the instructor way pas the cavern zone it goes wrong and the wife and son drown.

The father/husband later finds out that PADI had been repeatedly warned about these various LDS unsafe practices and PADI chose to do nothing about it, the father finds out that his families deaths may have been prevented had PADI sent out a simple email reminder about these unsafe diving practices, but instead PADI chose to do nothing at all, zero.

I really hope the PADI people read this and decide to act, it's a win win situation, it would greatly help with safety and, god forbid, should an accident happen at least PADI looks good since they did try to stop such unsafe practices.

[CaveBuddy95]

....

when I became an instructor for padi they made me learn by memory a big book full of standards and rules for safety, they ask me to assist to member forums every year to keep up in the new standards, and so on about instructor attitudes, etc...
well, don't forget to sign the petition.

That is true, the PADI bible is big but, I play devil advocate, after certified as OWSI nobody was behind you to see if you were doing things "by the book"? It is down to a person's choice and PADI washes his hands as they are not the one in the water!
As for issuing a warning, it is available for all PADI members to file a QA to their regional manager and from there a enquiry is on.
On the other hand people signing for a cave tour knowing they are not certified for this, should know better than to follow a dive guide who happens to work for a PADI factory. The Duty of Care applies only to the dive professional. If this case goes to court the guide/instructor has not one bit of string to hold on to.
PADI is the cerifiying agency, true and they "give" you the tools to teach the world to dive, up to you what you make with it.

I am not trying to bash you with this just my point of view as what a PADI rep would tell you.
Petition signed!

....
The father/husband later finds out that PADI had been repeatedly warned about these various LDS unsafe practices and PADI chose to do nothing about it, the father finds out that his families deaths may have been prevented had PADI sent out a simple email reminder about these unsafe diving practices, but instead PADI chose to do nothing at all, zero.

I really hope the PADI people read this and decide to act, it's a win win situation, it would greatly help with safety and, god forbid, should an accident happen at least PADI looks good since they did try to stop such unsafe practices.

As said above, in this situation, the husband will file a suite against the diveshop, who in turn, will wash his hands as they "ignored" their guide was doing such a thing and that's it, the guide goes to jail and the LDS has a big fine to pay... PADI in that story?? They didn't do much maybe but as a huge corporate they act with the liability of their members.
They would certainly loose certs for a brief period but hey, they are getting into Tec very hard, sidemount and all the **** so won't be long for them to recover!

Again, I don't intent to bash around but had a diver died during a dive and it was clear that PADI knows how to stir clear out of such mess!

If only a letter to irresponsible instructor would help change the way they do things...I guess we can and should hope so.
Carry on the good work!

[phillip1]

I see your point however I disagree on one key point, unsuspecting OW clients have no idea about the difference between cavern/cave and really do not know it is well beyond the training of any OW divers, they are putting they're lives and trust in the hands of instructors who are supposed to uphold the safety standards set forth by PADI.

It is very different than if the OW divers on they're own time choose to ignore the risks and dive into caves.

The instructors leading these dives are misleading OW divers into thinking that it is safe, the OW divers are following instructors whom they assume know what they are doing, that is a big difference.


When I spoke to the group of 5 who went to the airdome in El Chicho and into the jump and kept going on for an additional 100-200 meters further in, none of the clients had any idea whatsoever about the hazards involved and the instructor thought it was safe!!!

Since facilities are advertising themselves to be safe and under the guise of PADI, customers are expecting quality, safe and knowledgeable instructors, I think it is PADI's duty to make sure they are involved in safe diving practices.

We will be sending out these letters to al LDS in the DR in spanish and english, in a link I will be including "a deceptively easy way to die" and also some accident reports with "guided" tours turning to disaster.
One report in particular has the daughter of one of the victims asking LDS's to stop doing this.

If on top of this PADI were to remind LDS about the dangers it would really hit home I think and make a major difference in the DR.

I sincerely hope they act on this.