Rules of Engagement?? what have you done?

[adam0321]

JUst wondering to what lengths you have gone to keep open water divers out of caves. I have told numerious people not to enter the cave and explained the dangers. I have gotten into a few heated arguments while gearing up. I was at JB once on a sat and I was the only one there. Two dives came via kayak with open water gear and tried going in. Took a bit but finaly told them I would call the rangers if they went into the cave.

Some one once told me(who is a tec,cave instructor and padi course chief) that he was at a cave once and two open water divers kept talking about how they were going to go into the cave and he kept telling them no. I guess attempts to call the police didint work and they geared up and startred walking to the cave. The instructor "says" he went up to them handed them each $50.00 and then cut there hp lines on there regs and said "you will thank me someday". I cannot attest to the truth of this story but it is entertaining.

just wondering what stories you guys had??

[sskasser]

My random thoughts

If they are adults, they should ultimately have the freedom to kack themselves. I don't want the "police" telling me I can't dive a certain site because I don't have a sidemount card or a scooter card, etc.

If I bar them in some way (intimidation, threats, etc), they'll just come back when I'm not there.

If I talk to them, explaining (hopefully without preaching), the dangers (the "real" ones not just "you don't have training, you'll die" ones), then hopefully, they'll make a good decision. If that's not sinking in, I'll move on to how nasty cave divers can be to OW divers that screw up and get cave sites closed. The things we'd do to your dead body...

I practiced on my teenagers I figured out that once they think I'm preaching to them, or getting all authoritative, they simply stop listening.

It's even worked a couple of times, and I have never been happier than when one person I'd talked to in that situation came up to me later down the road and proudly showed me his new cavern card.

[FW]

.... The instructor "says" he went up to them handed them each $50.00 and then cut there hp lines on there regs and said "you will thank me someday". I cannot attest to the truth of this story but it is entertaining....

It is pretty hard to cut a HP hose, so I think the story is mostly BS.

The sadest case of this was a father "teaching" his kid to dive at Peacock. I tried to convince him to get the kid proper lessons, but to no avail. An hour or so later, the father and a buddy headed for pothole. I recovered the father, with the kid sitting on the shore in shock.

I used to worry a lot about this, and had long "talks" to OW divers at dive sites. One such diver ended up a CD instructor, and president of the NACD.

I wrote to all the OW agencies of the time (not that many in 1977) and told them the dangers of their instructors checking out students in caves. That resulted in letters going out to all OW instructors banning checkout dives in caves.

Probably the best thing I did was start up the Cavern Diving program. I can't take full credit, it was actually Sheck Exley's idea.

That was over 30 years ago, and it did help a lot, but in spite of all the information available people still have hard heads. There may not be much you can do, other than offer them information to get proper training.

A tactic I have seen work is to hand them a piece of paper to sign, willing all their gear to you, if you have to recover their bodies later.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Crazy local "bootleg" cave divers have given me a few gems to dive... I think they're nuts, but they've been doing it forever and stay alive to drink that next beer.

Its a weird thing...

I think its the non-local, OW divers with no experience in the locale and want to rush into a cave, that pose the biggest hazard to themselves and cave access. I do everything I can to stop these idiots short of getting physical.




I'm not saying its right, or safe... I just can't argue with a person who's been doing it for decades and still gets out safely. Even if their gear, trim, and overall diving practices are horrid by todays standards.

[jj1987]

For me it really depends, do they have any gear that I want? If so, I'll offer my dive buddy a few bucks to not report them and we'll start the bidding.

Got to hear an instructor this weekend who was teaching a class, saw OW divers in Devil's. He took their light and opened it underwater, ruining it. IMO that gives a terrible image for our community, talking to them is about all we can do.

[parabuzzle]

A tactic I have seen work is to hand them a piece of paper to sign, willing all their gear to you, if you have to recover their bodies later.

Sounds like these forms should be included in the Save-A-Diver Kit... yuk yuk... wow that was bad... But seriously, seems like something handy to keep in your kit.

[adam0321]

yeah I have had the best luck with simply telling them there is nothing to see but wet rocks. And that alot of people have died and that there is more to see outside the cave

[sskasser]

Another thought, triggered by FW's post:

If we could somehow "get" to all OW instructors, especially the non cave-diving ones, and help them to understand, I think we'd be onto something. Cave diving was not covered in my OW class except the "don't dive beyond your training blah blah blah." I think it makes a lot of sense to specify and spend a few more minutes on it, especially in Florida, where there are so many opportunities for them to hit a cave.

My students have to watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" as part of their OW class. I don't avoid the subject of caves (hard to be around me for 5 minutes and not know it's my true love). I've talked to a couple of OW instructors who are horrified by me doing this.

Hmmmm, maybe one or more of the cave agencies could host a "fun" day somewhere and invite generically "all current OW instructors." Throw in some door prizes, t-shirts, etc, have some fun with it, but create the opportunity to get "our" message across, and impress upon them the importance of passing that message on to their students. Heck, Ginnie might even be interested in co-hosting.

[FW]

...If we could somehow "get" to all OW instructors, especially the non cave-diving ones, and help them to understand, I think we'd be onto something.....

Technically, all OW classes are supposed to warn about the dangers of overhead diving. Or ar least were 20 years ago.

[Tegg]

Shirley, that is a great idea. Get on it.


In my opinion, I just simply follow a process:

1. Ask them if they want to hear why they should not dive beyond their training into caves in a nice and educational instructor tone.
2. If they refuse education because they know it all, I simply ask them to write down their next of kin phone numbers and place them in their vehicles. That way the sheriff officer that handles their recovery process will know who to contact.

If they are going to kill themselves, they should at least make it easy to contact their families.

Other then that and you are crossing the line and can get into legal trouble.