Petition to Address the Current Line Placement in PSSP

[jammer]

Well IMHO as a newly certified Intro. to cave diver I have dove past the pothole gap and "T" many times now and as for the gaps at Olsen and the other sinks I see no problem with them I was trained not to get off the Gold line and how to use line markers. I was trained what to do and not to do at my level and I have no problem diving within my Training.

I agree with the guy who said that you can make a dive in peanut to your thirds and I have personally made it to the crossover tunnel and still had 300 psi before I hit my 6th in Doubles. Why can I make this much penatration in peanut but can't go past Pothole? I think the gaps in the sinks are fine but I know not to do do gaps to off shoot or side tunnels.

As for the line to Open water in peacock I have not forgotten how to run a reel nor will I ever forget how to but I also think what the other guy said previously was accurate as I was not taught how to exit in lights out all the way to open water with multiple reels atached to the gold line but I am sure we can all clip our reel on the line with 5 or 6 other reels and be able to tell witch one was ours correct? Well I would be able to with mine cause I have thought about this before I even thought of taking the course. So I marked mine to where I would know. But I still would not like to try it in an emergency situation and hopeing someone layed there line correctly with the other reels. I don't think this used to be a problem with peacock in the early yrs but with the traffic that I see in there when I go I think the gold line to open water is more a safety thing in the right direction. So I vote and sign to keep it like it is.

I mean come on how many accidents or close accidents or anything have we had with them like they are? I also wonder how many teams and how many dives have been made safely in there since the change? so look at the statistics and like the one guy said earlier, the Gold line is only a reference line to safe exit not a guarantee exit. I also think navigation is a must.

I was trained how to dive safe and come come safe end of story!!!!!!!
If I violate any rules that is my bad but leave them as they are.
Just my 2cents

[Gary]

While I think trainning is important I also think the line changes the line commitee have instituted are well thought out and an improvement to the lines in the system.

[Puttzer]

I'll be ready for that Kodak moment, when we have 10 lines tied off at the entrance to Peacock or even Orange.

[Gary]

I'll be ready for that Kodak moment, when we have 10 lines tied off at the entrance to Peacock or even Orange.

It used to happen every year at Little River durring the CDS convention when it was held there in Branford (even after they pulled the line up to the bottom of the slope where it is now).

Seemed more of a danger to me then a saftey requirement. I'd not run a line and just dodge thru the spider web.

[OneBrightGator]

I have to agree with the instuctors. When I was learning cavern and intro, it wasn't a cakewalk to set the primary, maintain bouyancy, use placements, etc. I, like alot of beginners at the time were struggling with the reel, bouncing off the ceiling, or was too negative trying to set the primary, and burning alot of air doing so. I have excellent trim and bouyancy now, but it did'nt suddenly happen. It took lots and lots of dives, and experience building. I feel that you can become complacent if you don't practice your skills. I know that if I have not used a reel in awhile for a jump, or primary, It don't go near as smooth as if you used it all the time, and you are saying to yourself "damn, that was a sloppy jump, I need to do it more". If you go diving all the time and not set primaries, do visual jumps etc., are you going to be polished enough to do the drills you need in a total siltout, or light failure? I don't think so.

Safety is the primary concern of the UTC, not forcing divers to maintain their skills, this sets a precedent saying that by changing the line configuration we (all of you signing this petition) agree that this will keep divers' skills up, if a fatality occurs will you be held responsible? Maintaining skills is the individual diver's responsibility, not yours, cave instructors or any of the line commitees.

[Tex]

Things never change.... graphic from 2 years ago:

[PacerFan577]

Just to add my opinion... I would be willing to sign a petition that is the opposite of all of the points presented in the petition above: please leave the lines the way they are.

I fully agree with genesis. There is nothing to prevent a diver from running a reel despite the lines being in open water. The conservation issues are arguable - every placement of a line causes cave erosion. The difference in safety and likelyhood of a fatality is arguable. If you are properly trained, the placement of the lines has no bearing on the safety of your dive -- and if anything, you would reduce the safety of a true emergency exit by increasing the complexity of navigation.

I feel removing the T at pothole would be significantly less safe because you are removing a direct path to open water. Even with a gapped line, in a zero-vis emergency exit you will now need to proceed out to the main entrance as there will be no indication to the direction to the Pothole line. Keep in mind, the direction of the arrows on the line that point to Pothole would need to be reversed because there will no longer be a continuous line to open water in Pothole in zero visibility or an emergency.

I disagree less with removing the T at crossover because it can be navigationally confusing, but it is no different than the T's in Little River.

Also, since you asked for constructive criticism, it would seem the quotes from Denny Willis and Dave Rhea are taken out of context; they only state that their agencies were not consulted in the changes. If you did not receive their approval to use them, I would suggest removing them. The original context of their messages (here on the CDF last year) was a rebuttal to a post that implied their endorsement of the changes.

I definitely hope that opposing viewpoints are discussed and considered at the meeting.

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As a compromise, why don't we rotate the placement of the lines in Peacock I every six months to keep everyone on their toes and both sides happy? (Yes it's a joke...)

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If your head's not in the game, then don't dive. Safe diving to all.
-Tim

[jammer]

Hey instructors think of it this way leave the line running to open water for the experienced cave divers and it will be less lines and reels on the Gold line for you to have to contend with!!!!!!!!!! Ah by George I think He's on to something. I will sign the petition to leave lines the way they are.

[IowaCaveDiver]

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody, but what if it happend to an intro diver who knows nothing about jumps and such... sounds like recipe for disaster. In my opinion people who want to keep the lines as they are can only support their opinions with reasons of laziness. So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline? So what if it takes you a minute or two longer to complete a jump because you actually have to run a gap reel. Go back to your training and stick to the rules. I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules. In conclusion, we need to stick to the standards and play by the rules so that all divers that visit these systems will be safe and able to rely on a standard operating procedure.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

[curtschu]

The main line coming out into the openwater seems to be no problem at Peacock due to the fact that No Openwater divers are allowed. I don't see where the line coming out precludes instructors from teaching running a reel to the main line "for other systems" It's TRAINING! As far as closing the gaps within the system I think this is a BAD idea for the reason already stated. I have not seen the T's since I have not been to Peacock in a long time. Are they like LR big plastic things or just T'ed lines? I think there is a big difference.