Petition to Address the Current Line Placement in PSSP

[OneBrightGator]

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody, but what if it happend to an intro diver who knows nothing about jumps and such... sounds like recipe for disaster. In my opinion people who want to keep the lines as they are can only support their opinions with reasons of laziness. So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline? So what if it takes you a minute or two longer to complete a jump because you actually have to run a gap reel. Go back to your training and stick to the rules. I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules. In conclusion, we need to stick to the standards and play by the rules so that all divers that visit these systems will be safe and able to rely on a standard operating procedure.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

I see using the fact that you mistakenly headed down the wrong line as poor justification for changing the line configuration when the true culpirt is poor line protocol. I have no issues with moving the lines if you can back it up, the reasons listed are bullshit catch-alls which are cover-ups for the true reasons, which are even worse.

[DeWayne]

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody, but what if it happend to an intro diver who knows nothing about jumps and such... sounds like recipe for disaster. In my opinion people who want to keep the lines as they are can only support their opinions with reasons of laziness. So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline? So what if it takes you a minute or two longer to complete a jump because you actually have to run a gap reel. Go back to your training and stick to the rules. I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules. In conclusion, we need to stick to the standards and play by the rules so that all divers that visit these systems will be safe and able to rely on a standard operating procedure.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

This contradiction is my number one argument against changing things. I don't know who your instructor was, but I was taught that you should be aware of your surroundings at all times. Not doing so is the real laziness that you spoke of. You have to be responsible for yourself;, if you don't know where you are in a cave then you should not be in there period, regardless of how the lines are run. Other sites are teed similar to this line and you don't hear complaints there as those diving the systems take responsibility for their own actions and learn the cave as they progress further in. It should not be a race to see how far you can go on each dive. Take your time to learn the terrain and not be so damn dependent upon a line that may or may not be there the next time you pass through. The line will change much faster than the primary cave features.

[BobK]

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody...
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

Mainly it will happen to those who don't pay attention when they should. You basically performed a shorter version of the mistake the divers in Mexico made a little while back. Luckily you recognized it sooner than they did. Cave training covers line awareness, IMO if you end up on the wrong line it's a lack of application of training rather than any inherent problem with the line placement.

[OFG-1]

So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline?

I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

Matt, I just may have to send your tanks back!

Until you try to dive a location with 3 or 4 reels into the mainline, you don't know the definition of Cluster F**k. It's like going into Devils with 3 or 4 teams on deco, only with line.

Next time you are down, call me, we can try it. Run 3 primary reels into Peacock, down the restriction, and to the mainline. Try to find places to tie 3 lines off, not "disturb" the cave, whatever that means, and not build a huge mess. Try coming out. If you are concerned about new divers, have one of them come out.

Us "older" cave divers, those that came along in the 70's, gapped everything. There were few tees. No visual jumps (except Pot Hole), and until ol' Dorf came along with his damn stickey tape, no line arrows.

I have no problem gapping everything. Let's do it. Get yourself 4 or 5 spools, and go to town. I do agree that unmarked Tees and visual jumps are not good things.

Let's not choke over diver training. If you want to run lines for training I am all for it. DO IT. There is nothing preventing you from running parallel lines into Peacock as far as your reel will go, and reeling out. I trust the judgment of our instructors is good (mostly) and they are able to decide what type of training is within standards, and the best for their students.
If Peacock does not provide what they want, they should vote with their feet.

With that said, I believe the safety record at Peacock is excellent for the number of divers, and the feet of penetration done there on an annual basis. Same goes for Devils, with the added bonus of all those submarine Hell's Angels zooming around. (you know who you are)

And on a community level, overall, if you look at the number of divers, the number of locations, the number of dives and the hundreds of thousands of feet of penetration done, hours and hours of decompression done, AND with all those "end of the line" junkies, scooter jockeys, voodoo gas blenders, dive nazis, keyhole freaks, mud hoggers, gas bag users ( and you all know who you are) and take this as a whole, I just don't see the huge problems with training, certification, and dive practices.

Look at the incidents in hang gliding, motocross, rock climbing, skydiving, dating multiple women at the same time, or any other high risk sport, I think as a whole, we do pretty well.

[FW]

I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules.

Matt, I am not picking on you, but you mentioned "old" divers.

I remember a time when there were no "permanent" lines in any cave. There were Ts before there were gaps. The main problem back then was there was no way to mark the Ts, so they were mosty all changed to gaps. Now that there are line arrows, there is no reason not to use to Ts.

I like the system in Mexico. Very few gaps, and well marked Ts.

I think it is time that US instructors learn how to deal with Ts, and start teaching their students how to deal with them.

There have been Ts in Little River for years, and I don't know of any problem caused by them.

[OFG-1]

I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules.

Matt, I am not picking on you, but you mentioned "old" divers.

I remember a time when there were no "permanent" lines in any cave.

Forrest, wasn't Wakulla a dry cave when you started?

[PacerFan577]

Just another point that nobody has brought up...

Say there are 8 reels run in a CF across the cavern zone. It happened before the lines were moved, and it still happens now because of classes. In the old configuration, you either ran your own line and tried to avoid the CF, which is rather difficult with some of the stuff I have seen, or you just gave up and visualed the thing. Today, at least you have the option of not running a line if it's already a complete mess, and still being assured you have a continuous line to open water. Which is safer?

[jammer]

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody, but what if it happend to an intro diver who knows nothing about jumps and such... sounds like recipe for disaster. In my opinion people who want to keep the lines as they are can only support their opinions with reasons of laziness. So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline? So what if it takes you a minute or two longer to complete a jump because you actually have to run a gap reel. Go back to your training and stick to the rules. I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules. In conclusion, we need to stick to the standards and play by the rules so that all divers that visit these systems will be safe and able to rely on a standard operating procedure.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

Well I do not see or suport your theory I was trained by Mike and I was trained not to do multi directional dives or gaps or jumps or T's so I am not worried about going past my training but I am glad and like the Gold Line ran out to open water. I was real happy to see and use it the day you speak of and noticed that it was of great help and safety the day Mike was training the students you brought down as they had ruduced the Vis. in there to maybe 2ft it was the worst I have ever seen it. I will not go into that though or my thoughts on weather or not some of them should have even been signed up for the course or not. Some looked like they were straight from the pool to the cavern course. As for you not paying attention to where you were in the cave and not keeping your eyes on the Gold Line that is your bad. You say it could have happened to anyone yes I agree it could have if they did the same as you and did not pay attention to where and what they were doing. But I am glad you made it out safe and your training kicked in and took over and led you out to safety.

[DeWayne]

Look at the incidents in hang gliding, motocross, rock climbing, skydiving, dating multiple women at the same time, or any other high risk sport, I think as a whole, we do pretty well.

Do us old guys think alike or what?

[Kenny P.]

Forrest, wasn't Wakulla a dry cave when you started?

Maybe with a live Mastadon in it! <(-:} Just kidding Forrest, you can't change history!
Bless,
Kenny P.