Does Devil's make people rude??

[Line Squirrel]

(Let's see how many people I can offend.)

The problems here can be attributed to one thing: cave diving instructors teaching and passing people who are not ready to be cave divers.

Absolutely agree Russell but in addition I've been wondering for awhile now if we don't look further up the food chain and start to bring into question the instructor trainers? Are they cutting loose sub-par instructors? I'm not pointing fingers at any particular agency or individual, just putting the question out there for discussion.

[DA Aquamaster]

don't get me wrong. My instructor taught me this too. I just never put it in context of jump lines but rather when running the primary into the cave.

Hill 400 is where I am guilty.

Good line placement (primary, gaps or jumps) is one of those things you will take pride in doing well - or at least you should, as it is obvious many cave divers don't. And not to nit pick, but if it was an apprentice or full cave class, your instructor should have made that point clear regarding jump lines as well through both demonstration and expectation that you are able to do it well.

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That is one reason that it can take a class longer than normal to place a jump line - the class will do it wrong, it gets pointed out and then becomes a teaching moment as they learn to do it correctly. And that long term pay off in diver quality is one reaon to be a bit patient with classes when entering behind one since most divers would probably rather be delayed on one dive the students make rather than be inconvienced by every dive the student subsequentoly makes.

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The exiting diver has the ROW rule is simple and it needs to stay that way. It is true that in the real world, the exiting diver is massively fat on gas, especially in a high flow cave, but the rule is intended for those situations where the exiting diver may be critically short on gas. In the event an exiting team is short on gas and passes an entering team I am confident they will be highly motivated to get the entering teams attention with no need for formal protcols. Any expectation that the entering team has that the exiting teams should not have the ROW would just confuse the issue at a critcal moment.

Besides cave diving should be about safety, not about swimming or scootering a couple minutes deeper into the system. It's just a cave dive, and regardless of whatever your ego is telling you, it is not going to cure cancer or result in some other equally great benefit to the public and western civlization will not crumble into ruin if you don't push your personal best a little farther into the system.

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Deco obligations create other complications. For an OC diver with no stage or a single stage at Ginnie, the deco obligation on exit is often where it was planned to be and a 4-5 minute delay during exit can put the team as a whole off its deco plan failry significantly. At the other extreme, CCR and multi stage divers may be using the cave from the cornflakes outbound to manage their ascent rate. Each approach has an entirely different set of preferences on exit - one motivated to get to a 20 ft stop fairly quickly to reduce the overall ascent time and the other already chilling out on deep stops and slow ascent rates to prevent bubble formation.

The answer to that issue is to still grant the exiting teams the ROW, but it then also depends on the exiting team to be courteous and demonstrate adequate SA to anticipate an entering or faster exiting team's need to get past and take advantage of suitbale spots in the cave to facilitate an entering team getting by or to allow a faster exiting team to play through.

I can't think of many cases, other than being rapidly overtaken by a scooter where an attentive diver is going to be "surprised" and is unbale to take full advantage of strategic locations to efficiently deal with oncoming or passing divers. if they fail to do so it is an SA issues as much as a ROW or courtesy issue.

In short, it calls for courtesy, common sense and solid SA, not changes to the current rules.

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One of the early posts mentioned 3 teams getting in the water at the same time. Even if multiple team are stacked up on the steps, it makes sense to communicate between teams and stagger the start times by 3-5 minutes to allow some spacing between teams. That conversation can also help sort out who has scooters, students, existing primary lines or other factors that may make it clear which team will be moving faster and consequently may be a better choice to enter first.

But what I suspect often happens is that multiple teams all start attempting to be "first" to beat the traffic so to speak, and when that occurs, problems are almost certain to develop in the cave. In that regard, all teams involved share the responsibility for the lack of predive communication and coordination and you can't just sit back and ***** about a lack of courtesy without also considering your role in the evolution of events.

[DA Aquamaster]

Absolutely agree Russell but in addition I've been wondering for awhile now if we don't look further up the food chain and start to bring into question the instructor trainers? Are they cutting loose sub-par instructors? I'm not pointing fingers at any particular agency or individual, just putting the question out there for discussion.

I agree. Some instructors really suck and it makes you question the people who trained them and certified them to become instructors.

I'd take it one level higher though and start asking why agencies allow those instructors that suck to continue to be instructors. I'd hope the whole industry is about more than just competition and fear that an agency with higher expectations will start losing instuctors to agencies with less stringent expectations.

[FW]

I agree. Some instructors really suck and it makes you question the people who trained them and certified them to become instructors.

I'd take it one level higher though and start asking why agencies allow those instructors that suck to continue to be instructors. I'd hope the whole industry is about more than just competition and fear that an agency with higher expectations will start losing instuctors to agencies with less stringent expectations.

The best approach is report bad instructors to their agency. Chances are nobody has ever complained about them. It may take more than one complaint, because of the chances of "sour grapes".

[Gene Powell]

I've got it!!! I can't believe we missed this! We need a courtesy certification! Everybody knows that it doesn't matter how much knowledge, experience, or ability you have, it's useless without a card! Maybe this is a conspiracy by instructors to cause an outcry that will result in a requirement for a "courtesy card"!

[amphipod06]

I've got it!!! I can't believe we missed this! We need a courtesy certification! Everybody knows that it doesn't matter how much knowledge, experience, or ability you have, it's useless without a card! Maybe this is a conspiracy by instructors to cause an outcry that will result in a requirement for a "courtesy card"!

I think that if you really dig, you may find a PADI specialty that covers that, 25 dives and $25 will get you an instructor card from them...<sarcastic>

Dive safe,

Celia

PS and don't forget to include a recent 2x2 photo of yourself...for the card...

[FW]

I've got it!!! I can't believe we missed this! We need a courtesy certification! Everybody knows that it doesn't matter how much knowledge, experience, or ability you have, it's useless without a card! Maybe this is a conspiracy by instructors to cause an outcry that will result in a requirement for a "courtesy card"!

And would you call that a "C-Card"?

[Serota]

To address these "problems":

1) When YOU encounter students or new divers or anyone else struggling with a line or doing a drill where YOU think they shouldn't, try to remember that not too long ago YOU were doing the same thing or something equally annoying. If YOU are as masterful as YOU think, YOU should be able to find a solution that lets YOU proceed on your way without loosing too much time toward your goal-oriented objective.

2) Accept that Ginnie is a major training site and that if you dive there, you will encounter students and often times lots of divers that may in some regard delay and/or offend you.

3) Be flexible and skilled enough to deal with whatever situations you may encounter including those involving other divers.

4) Stop trying to find someone to blame for these minor inconveniences, such as instructors and their students, who are simply trying to learn and do their job in the best way possible.

These suggestions are intended to address items that may be considered as inconveniences and annoying, and not truly dangerous actions.

[sskasser]

To address these "problems":

1) When YOU encounter students or new divers or anyone else struggling with a line or doing a drill where YOU think they shouldn't, try to remember that not too long ago YOU were doing the same thing or something equally annoying. If YOU are as masterful as YOU think, YOU should be able to find a solution that lets YOU proceed on your way without loosing too much time toward your goal-oriented objective.

2) Accept that Ginnie is a major training site and that if you dive there, you will encounter students and often times lots of divers that may in some regard delay and/or offend you.

3) Be flexible and skilled enough to deal with whatever situations you may encounter including those involving other divers.

4) Stop trying to find someone to blame for these minor inconveniences, such as instructors and their students, who are simply trying to learn and do their job in the best way possible.

These suggestions are intended to address items that may be considered as inconveniences and annoying, and not truly dangerous actions.

Well said.

[ARY]

Ok, ok after 5 th page I'm gonna try to be polite now. You finally convinced me.