Does Devil's make people rude??

[JahJahwarrior]

I'm a little confused how a team pulling a reel at the parkbench would cause all that much trouble. You can always run a line on the righthand side of the parkbench to get around them. The team behind you in the cornflakes could have taken a shortcut on the left to get past everything, but that way only works if you aren't carrying stages or scooters and you aren't too fat.

I have only a few times been annoyed at divers in devil's getting in my way. But, I know the cave there pretty well, and it's usually not an issue to slip around someone. Usually, I dive at night to avoid the traffic, because it can get ridiculous during the day.

[aainslie]

I'm a little confused how a team pulling a reel at the parkbench would cause all that much trouble. You can always run a line on the righthand side of the parkbench to get around them. The team behind you in the cornflakes could have taken a shortcut on the left to get past everything, but that way only works if you aren't carrying stages or scooters and you aren't too fat.

I have only a few times been annoyed at divers in devil's getting in my way. But, I know the cave there pretty well, and it's usually not an issue to slip around someone. Usually, I dive at night to avoid the traffic, because it can get ridiculous during the day.

...or better still, not run a line... it's pretty hard to get lost there with a yellow line a foot or two away and the current howling towards the exit... just saying...

I must admit that I've been yelled at - appropriately - for being an ass on entry, essentially pushing my way past another team and separating them in the process. A big part is that when you don't have a lot of experience it really feels like hours are passing as you wait for an opportunity, whne really it's 3 or 4 minutes at best. It's really not a big deal to hang back.

That said... it IS interesting to consider WHY we have this protocol of letting exiting divers have the right of way. In most occasions, they have built up gigantic gas reserves and can afford to wait while others pass. When exiting, as soon as I see incoming lights I invariably tuck up somewhere near the ceiling and signal entering divers to come past when I'm exiting, as I know they're more goal-driven than I am, and if swimming, they're puffing and panting while I'm swanning along loving the drift. It's quite fun to turn your light out and see if they even spot you.

I wonder if we shouldn't change the protocol to:

- Divers entering a system should have right of way, EXCEPT when an obvious emergency is under way. This includes sharing air, missing lights, a light waved rapidly, or any other sign of duress. IF THIS OCCURS, the entering diver/s should get out the way immediately and offer assistance.

I understand, the problem with offering is that a lot of those incidents involve instruction. But boy, wouldn't it be a shame to finish your dive and find out that one of the people who came past you died OOG? An instructor could point out to an entering party that it's a drill by signalling OK clearly with their light.

I'll bet that a lot of us do this already. Am I right? Do YOU give way to incoming groups when exiting?

[WEPIV]

ns....

When will people learn to not bisect major cross sections of the cave....

When they are taught this, understand and practice it....

[Tegg]

...or better still, not run a line... it's pretty hard to get lost there with a yellow line a foot or two away and the current howling towards the exit... just saying...

I must admit that I've been yelled at - appropriately - for being an ass on entry, essentially pushing my way past another team and separating them in the process. A big part is that when you don't have a lot of experience it really feels like hours are passing as you wait for an opportunity, whne really it's 3 or 4 minutes at best. It's really not a big deal to hang back.

That said... it IS interesting to consider WHY we have this protocol of letting exiting divers have the right of way. In most occasions, they have built up gigantic gas reserves and can afford to wait while others pass. When exiting, as soon as I see incoming lights I invariably tuck up somewhere near the ceiling and signal entering divers to come past when exiting, as I know they're more goal-driven than I am, and if swimming, they're puffing and panting while I'm swanning along loving the drift. It's quite fun to turn your light out and see if they even spot you! I wonder if we shouldnt change the protocol to:

- Divers entering a system should have right of way, EXCEPT when an obvious emergency is under way. This includes sharing air, missing lights, a light waved rapidly, or any other sign of duress. IF THIS OCCURS, the entering diver/s should get out the way immediately and offer assistance.

I understand, the problem is that a lot of those incidents involve instruction. But boy, wouldn't it be a shame to finish your dive and find out that one of the people who came past you died OOG? An instructor could point out to an entering party that it's a drill by signalling OK clearly with their light.

Why change the rules to something more "complex" (requires actual communication or actual review of the other team), when the "simple" rule isn't followed?

The rules for cavediving are meant to be simple. Allowing the exiting divers right of way has never been an issue for me, or my buddies when we dive. Then again, this isn't much of an issue when one dives caves where there are not many other dive teams to exit the cave...

[netmage]

I'll bet that a lot of us do this already. Am I right? Do YOU give way to incoming groups when exiting?

Yea, at times I've tucked aside, shined the light on my hand, and waved them thru... All depends on the passage I suppose.... It's like driving on a single lane path in the mud... Someone has to tuck to the side, and if its easier for all of us, when I know someone is coming; might as well...

[Sludge]

(Let's see how many people I can offend.)

The problems here can be attributed to one thing: cave diving instructors teaching and passing people who are not ready to be cave divers.

My instructor insisted on two things: one hundred open water dives, and the ability to demonstrate awareness underwater, before he would take someone as a cavern student.

I wonder how many other instructors feel the same way.

[sea2summit]

I think a lot of the problem last week may have been from so few other sites open. I dove Wed-Thr and it seemed like 2 out of 3 teams where students and as soon as you got past the 400 jump you didn't see anyone.

Funny story one instructor decided to do a line drill in the eye and ran his line strait across the exit...talk about lack of cave etiquette. I had time left at 20' so I watched and was glad I didn't have to cut it when I decided to exit.

[netmage]

(Let's see how many people I can offend.)

No, most just have one of 3 prerequisites...

Cash, Check, or Credit Card...

[jj1987]

I wonder how many other instructors feel the same way.

To my knowledge, only 2 training agencies require a course that teaches basic technical skills before you can start cave training. I think the thought here is that we'll drag them in a cavern to teach basic skills that could be taught in OW. But then again if we required students to have "basic skills", we'd see arguing over which ones are needed, even a very simple and fundamental one such as a back kick was heavily argued about over on TDS.

There's a re-breather instructor who often uses peacock for training that allowed students to KNEEL at the crossover tunnel to tie in a jump spool during my apprentice course with Jeff Bauer. That same instructor has had courses in the mill pond area as well as Madison blue which I've heard about later on having the same issues. His name appears on several maps, and he's an old timer, so I doubt anything will be done about it....and that's at the CCR Cave level, we're not talking cavern here! It's bad enough that there was a thread over on another forum where people were discussing how EVERYONE knows exactly who you're talking about when you mention a re-breather cave course that was silting the place out, but nothing is ever done.

...or better still, not run a line... it's pretty hard to get lost there with a yellow line a foot or two away and the current howling towards the exit... just saying...

Frankly I don't think the line is nearly as important on these jumps as every team member dropping a cookie on the exit side of where the jump reel is tied in, so each buddy knows if their teammate has gotten further than the jump in the case of buddy separation. For me visual jumps seem like a foot on a banana peel while standing beside my own grave...I'm pretty sure I have good balance but don't want to PROVE it when SHTF. Admittedly however, so as not to look like I'm BS'ing my own safety stance, I don't run a primary at Ginnie, so I'm OK with adults making adult decisions, but I can think of one dive at Ginnie in the past year where someone was deathly wrong.

- Divers entering a system should have right of way, EXCEPT when an obvious emergency is under way. This includes sharing air, missing lights, a light waved rapidly, or any other sign of duress. IF THIS OCCURS, the entering diver/s should get out the way immediately and offer assistance.

I understand, the problem with offering is that a lot of those incidents involve instruction. But boy, wouldn't it be a shame to finish your dive and find out that one of the people who came past you died OOG? An instructor could point out to an entering party that it's a drill by signalling OK clearly with their light.

I'll bet that a lot of us do this already. Am I right? Do YOU give way to incoming groups when exiting?

I think exiting divers should always have the right away, but when they're shielding their lights and stopped, it's pretty clear they're "motioning me on". I've encountered this several times, and I do it myself. It's especially the case when I'm coming back from a dive where I've racked up a lot of deco and start slowing my ascent at 50ft, I don't want to make divers wait around for me in the eye while i take my sweet time....plus with 2 stages and a deco bottle, it's MUCH easier to simply move aside at my convenience than trying to squeeze by an entering team wherever they choose to stop for me.

Here's my suggestions-
1- Enter the ear, exit the eye. Run a green line into the ear from OW, run a red line out of the cave to open water via the eye. This way we knew red = exit, green = enter. The color system is working so well with the DPV rule, why not expand on it? (joking here...kinda, but entering the ear and exiting the eye would solve a LOT, run 2 gold lines and have them meet)
2- If you hear a scooter behind you as you're both entering, get off to the side of the cave....the flow is less here anyways, and it's where you SHOULD be swimming. The DPV divers can deal with the flow easier, so give them the high flow area. It's not that hard to hear them, and if they're already speed matched with their buddy, it's a PITA to go off/on the throttle for 15 minutes in a cave this large....
3- When exiting, if you're not in an emergency, wave the other team on, or get as far over as possible to make it clear they're welcome to pass you. Especially in Ginnie, you should have huge gas reserves anyways.
4- At popular jumps in Ginnie, there's PLENTY of room to place jump lines AROUND the exiting team, you shouldn't have to be held up by an exiting team. PLEASE secure your lines to the floor or somehow keep them low. No need to make a spider web to catch divers in...thin white line is tricky to see when you're exiting at >200fpm!

If people would get IN the flow on exit / get OUT of the flow on entrance as well as exit the eye / enter the ear, 99% of these issues are avoided.

[FW]

First, it was upsetting to see OW checkout dives being done in the Eye. This is a huge disservice to the new divers. Sure, they get their 20' of depth (when they drop their depth gauges to the sand) to get checked off on their skills, but there is no where in that spring to do a tour. The agency standards I'm familiar with all state the dives must be done 20' or deeper for 15 minutes or more. Unless these instructors are counting a swim around the Eye as the tour, which is BS, they are violating standards. Okay, that rant over. Now for the real one...

At least they don't allow OW checkouts *inside* the cave, like they once did. In 1978, I sent a letter to all the OW training agencies, pointing out that their instructors were using Ginnie (aka the Ballroom) for OW training. Dennis Graver (PADI training director) responded by sending out a definition of an OW checkout site. The first requirement that it was *OW*, and not overhead. He also said an OW diive site had to be "considerably larger than a swimming pool".