do the right thing
Agreed.Originally Posted by FW
I also think it takes a confident, strong willed individual to do the right thing. It is just too easy to be prejudice and allow yourself to be filled with hate.
As Squirl Girl says, we are very good at convincing ourselves of what we want to see.
The best we can hope for is to draw on the good in the cave diving community, and try our best to ignore the bad.
dean
Anders,
As I said in my other post, I don't have a dog in this fight, which is not entirely true. I have been to Mexico cave diving and love the people, culture and caves there. I most certainly don't have a Mexican cave diving hero. I am not friends with Steve B or Steve G (to ensure no confusion with the true SG). I also don't believe for a minute that one side is right and the other wrong, it is always somewhere in the middle.
Now having said that I respectfully ask you to go back and read Steve G's own words. Read his post here, read his blog and what was copied and pasted in other places. Take a long unbiased honest look at what his own words say, then tell me what you see. He may honestly have good intentions but good intentions do not necessarily end with good results.
What I see is the **** storm that been going on down there for years. Last year it came to a head and ended with the fighting calmed down and some great improvements in both lines in the caves and stability of how they were laid.
Now not even a year later Steve G is thumping the safety drum again. From his past history he has used this mantra to justify his actions in a personal war. I am not saying that the other side was in the right. I am not taking sides. I don't care who is right as I don't believe either side is. What I do care about is that the line wars are about to flame up again. Some progress and improvement has been made. I am concerned that the post by Steve G is the first volley is the war resuming. Reread his own words and consider the history with an open unbiased perspective. I think if anyone does that then they can easily see the real possibility of what I am saying.
When I was diving in Mexico one of the biggest frustrations was the lines. They would change from day to day as well as the markers. Last year my SO and I considered going to MX a number of times for a dive trip. Each time we talked about it we decided to wait until she had some more experience due to the line issues. Instead we opted for a long trip in the Bahama's and more trips to NFL. Could we have dealt with the line issues in MX? Sure but we voted with our wallet to do what we found to be better for us.
Are there problems with the lines in MX? Without a doubt!!! There are line issues in FL and everywhere else in the world as well. Has there been infighting and petty battles in those places as well? Absolutely and they have hurt them as well. The only success I have seen is from the parties putting aside their differences and at the very least abiding by a committee's decision. It is a slower process and often frustrating. Without saying there will always be someone that is not happy. It is the system that I have seen work though.
I am one of those that likes to see the original explorers markers (personal opinion). In the end it does not make much of a difference to my dive what marker is on the line. I rarely look at them other to reference direction in the system. I personally don't agree in the humor aspect of yanking out markers and putting in your own just to continue a petty war. I also don't agree with defacing markers in retaliation either. Both are wrong and childish. I also would be a little disappointed to see one of my exploration markers replaced with another for pettiness.
If Steve G is so overly concerned about safety, as he says, then IMHO he should continue on the high and more difficult road of working with the committee. If he feels so strongly that public opinion is needed to sway them then present it without the petty personal conflicts, attacks and the veiled threats of doing it himself if they don't do as he sees fit.
My SO and I hope to take a trip at the end of this year. Hopefully I get back on track and we will be able to afford it. We have talked about MX and it is at the top of our list. If the line wars flare back up again though I am very confident that our sights will move to the Bahamas, DR or the many other places that have cave diving that is off the beaten path for us.
Right or wrong this is my view on the situation in MX. It is my hard earned tourist dollars and I will put them where I believe I will get the best return for the money. I certainly want to go back to MX as they have some of the most beautiful caves in the world. My SO wants to see and experience them as well. Not diving MX caves much, knowing the complexity the passages can have and wanting to fully enjoy our time means that we don't want to deal with lines and markers that are changing day to day.
Bobby
This is the most bizarre logic.
Gerrard is ONE person, not many
The "hero" is most of the others, not one.
It also cracks me up when Gerrard talks about everyone except himself as the "minority".
It's a beautiful inversion of quantities.
Those are two good ones! I miss having Agnes around stirring things up!
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
Bobby - great post.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
Well said Bobby!
your words have been heard
It seems like every time we approach the subject of making the caves in Mexico safer, some always try to hijack the thread, and turn it into a bashing session, ignoring the good that can come from these discussions. These few would rather promote their own agenda then reach consensus about what is best for everyone. They are not interested in compromise and discussion, but rather bashing a villain. “Why talk about making the caves safer when _____ (fill in the blank) will wreck everything”. This attitude will get us nowhere.
Anders,
Rest assured, your words make sense to many of us here reading this thread. Don’t be discouraged by a few here who want to live in the past, and not try to make some progress to move forward and try to do what is best for everyone.
What's best for everyone? Or what's best for the cave?
To date there have been no fatalities in the tourist portions of No Hoch Na Chich (first 1500-200ft). Yet there is a drum beat to replace this line with a yellow goldline. At this point this is difficult but not impossible for Steve G to do by himself because the landowner banned him from accessing the cave from his cenote - after he acted without consultation with the safety committee. Steve G has blustered and attempted to regain access through some weak avenues like the Chamber of Commerce (as it impacts his ability to guide people to this popular system)
So yes the No Hoch mainline is white again. A) this has not caused any fatalities in the past. B) this has the effect of keeping divers MORE aware of the line like Andrew discussed above, and C) it has the additional benefit of keeping the bubble trail confined to a narrow swath above the line instead of spreading out away from a more distinctive goldline and ruining the soda straws which decorate the system.
So what purpose does Steve G's rant serve? His own agenda. There is no public safety threat in No Hoch and there is ever reasonable reason to replace frayed portions of the original line with new, braided, white #24. The past is a strong predictor of the future, new braided white line in this system is not only perfectly adequate, but its the best choice to also preserve this system so that there is a cave left worth diving in 2030.
... another reason I have little desire to go to Mexico. I'll just stick to Jackson Blue, where the only politics are that Scott H. won't tell me how to get to the deep section...
Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.
Dean and Anders,
Impementing unauthorized line changes in secrecy is NOT SAFE!!!
It can not be stated any simpler than that.
Do you agree?
I certainly hope that a consensus could be reached.
And let's cut the BS about "living in the past" and "own agendas".
People are truly concerned!
You lie, Honeypie! You've been saying that as long as I've known you!
Land of Enchantment -- not so great for cave diving, but mighty scenic!
It is a matter of perspective. Since he is older than the earth itself, to him it is recent........You lie, Honeypie! You've been saying that as long as I've known you!
Bobby
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