Closing Caves to the Public?

[DA Aquamaster]

and so it begins...

Dean, "temporary" closure of something by the federal government on federal lands is hardly EVER temporary...

In my job I get to see first hand what a) happens in congress where good congressional intent often goes horribly wrong, and then b) what happens in the regulatory process where that "intent" is often converted by a regulatory process into something much more far reaching and much more permanant than ever intended.

For example in this case "until it can be demonstrated that humans are not a vector" would in the abscence of any completed and more importantly approved and cleared research, become a de facto permanent ban.

I could see all caves getting drug into it as, to a bureaucrat, banning access to 'all caves on federal property" meets the congressional intent of protecting "all dry caves on federal property" without the need to make case by case detemrinations on what is a dry versus wet cave and developing differing methods of enforcement.

In the event the legislation does go forward, we would at a minimum want the legislation to sundown after X (1, 2, 3, 5?) years, or when the disease disease has already spread everywhere anyway and human vector concerns are no longer an issue, in order to cover the "no research ever gets done" and/or "it cannot be demonstrated that humans are not a vector" possibilities.

And more importantly for cave diving, we need to ensure that the legislation as enacted specifically excludes flooded caves in terms of both fully flooded caves and dry portions of caves where the entrance is flooded and where consequently no bats are present (other than plastic ones hanging from the ceiling.)

[sskasser]

The biggest potential is a government ban on caving, which would include cavediving. A lot of bureaucrats don't know, or care to understand, the difference. As it is suggested now, they aren't just closing bat caves, but ALL caves.

Exactly! And then who's going to tell the bats that they have to stay in the caves, and not roost in boxes, sheds, porches, barns, belfries, etc? Well, heck, we better close all those, too!

[chicken]

The thing I have learned over the last 20 years is the enviromentalists have learned to take small bites. They may start with one group, after that is complete they go after another. If the issue of the minute is dry caves, wet caves could be next. It is important we work together and avoid the "it doesn't affect me" attitude because it will affect you eventually.

[Squirrel Girl]

I have already written my letters about how inane this is. But I think you guys are a little overly concerned regarding underwater caves.

There are many, many problems with this proposal. But it means closing Carlsbad Caverns and Mammoth Cave if they mean ALL Federal caves. There are a lot of reasons why it can't be as universal and eternal as feared in some of these posts. Nonetheless, not only would it not be effective or enforceable, it distracts from things that can be done to really help save bats from WNS.

[Squirrel Girl]

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/c..._factsheet.pdf

Q. Does the petition apply to all caves and mines in the country?
A. No. The petition addresses bat-inhabited caves and mines only. Further, the petition requests administrative closure of bat caves and mines on federal land only.

[mwenner]

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/c..._factsheet.pdf

Q. Does the petition apply to all caves and mines in the country?
A. No. The petition addresses bat-inhabited caves and mines only. Further, the petition requests administrative closure of bat caves and mines on federal land only.

Thankyou Barbara for your informative link! No Comment.

[icestac]

I'm no dry caver, but I'd be happy to send a letter. Anyone have something prepared? Otherwise, I'll just write something about protecting the bats from drowning by keeping cave divers in the wet caves and thus scaring the bats away...

But seriously, a couple of paragraphs would be great.

Cheers,
Jeff

[FW]

The local grotto is writing a sample letter. When they get it done, I will post it as a reference.

[DA Aquamaster]

I have already written my letters about how inane this is. But I think you guys are a little overly concerned regarding underwater caves.

There are many, many problems with this proposal. But it means closing Carlsbad Caverns and Mammoth Cave if they mean ALL Federal caves. There are a lot of reasons why it can't be as universal and eternal as feared in some of these posts. Nonetheless, not only would it not be effective or enforceable, it distracts from things that can be done to really help save bats from WNS.

Working in a federal bureaucracy and being well aware of the abiltiies and limitations of the average bureaucrat, and even worse the average political appointee, I find it hard to share your optimism.

I'd much rather proceed on the assumption they will screw it up, rather than assume they will get it right and then try to correct the problem later when bureaucratic inertia is working against you rather than for you.

[MORGAN]

Working in a federal bureaucracy and being well aware of the abiltiies and limitations of the average bureaucrat, and even worse the average political appointee, I find it hard to share your optimism.

I'd much rather proceed on the assumption they will screw it up, rather than assume they will get it right and then try to correct the problem later when bureaucratic inertia is working against you rather than for you.

Yes - the most dangerous animal in the world is an unelected bureaucrat with the power to promulgate and enforce regulations!

Not that the elected ones are much better, by and large, but at least we get a chance to get rid of them periodically. Getting rid of a career bureaucrat is like trying to treat a multi-drug resistant infection.

Mike