Goodenough Springs Exploration Project - Notice of Complaint

[Herbie]

former CDF member named Dikhed ( whose post was removed by some moderator ) asked very good questions ...what are the qualifications of the C/I team? What is the deepest the Project team has been? Is the Goodenough Project crew in the same pile as the WKPP who try to own the springs they dive? Seems like these questions are valid and it is a pissing /ego match between groups. This is healthy competition in the real and free USA...keep on rocking in the free world.

[rchrds]

Sounds like Noe, et al need to quit the sniveling- It's an open site. If you want to keep the end of the line, you better step up, before someone else does. Overwise, keep your mouth shut about the location like everyone else does. Conventional ethics would suggest that nobody go in and add line if there is a current exploration going on- but if you let that sit- then expect others are going to view you as incompetent to make the exploration and step in, as they should. His best bet is to roll these two into the team- let them make their exploration dive, and lay line. Then come in and survey it, they they can. If they can't, you can publicly ridicule them for incompetence and overstepping their capabilities. You're better off working with them- than against them- there aren't that many people willing to make a dive like that- regardless of where you are. Just tell them that you expect a survey out of it.

Jason

[rblackburn]

This reminds me of some of the dry caving in TAG wars of the 80s. Norsmans Wells/James Harry Smith cave comes to mind right off.

[rchrds]

Yea- the politics never change, just the locations. Interesting point that the canadian makes- had no idea that the UIS had published ethics standards... thanks! Oops- that was in another forum, same subject, sorry.

[Arnold Mesiser]

The Canadian ...sounds so " foreign " LOL

[FW]

Yea- the politics never change, just the locations. Interesting point that the canadian makes- had no idea that the UIS had published ethics standards... thanks! Oops- that was in another forum, same subject, sorry.

Link please?

[Squirrel Girl]

Link please?

Google is your friend:
http://www.uis-speleo.org/ethic-en.html

Before undertaking an expedition to a foreign country, the visitor group should find out about previous work and/or current exploration by local or foreign cavers, in order not to interfere with current projects.

Credit for previous exploration should be given in expedition reports.

If several groups happen to be working in the same area, then the opportunity should be taken to learn from each other and to co-ordinate further work.

Pretty vanilla. I think they're sidestepping what is very complex. Personally, I think no one should scoop another's project. But a person/group can't leave a project fallow forever. It may be that grey area. In this particular case, it seems one team had a big project going. Welcomed another set of divers who said they were just visiting. But through Facebook, discovered they were going to scoop. The first group/project came completely unhinged. Who knows exactly what the truth is, but better communication seems to have been in order.

[Arnold Mesiser]

I posted the link on TDS as I know a lot of European and Canadian cavers that know of it..but not so many elsewhere.I posted the data and my opinion (same as Barbara's essentially ) in the hope that something like the chaos in Pozo Azul would not happen here.

In a nutshell I think they are proposing that people not screw one another over and use communication and simple personal integrity for positive results .I see more and more posts about just going to do what one wants and I see potential 'cave wars" as a result...the result of which is not often good for anyone and the caves.Not to mention the HUGE de motivational factor it would be if poaching was the norm.Can you imagine spending years and years of efforts along with personal financing to get going passage open etc only to have someone jump in and scoop the glory without any effort (uninvited)

I have no opinion on Goodenough (other than it has been a fascinating exploration with huge potential) as I could not possibly be privy to all the true goings on and nuances between the 2 parties.I DO hope that goodwill is something that can be salvaged and the expedition continues without bad blood.

If "grey" areas or perceived poor behavior is present at a site-then I hope the cave community leaders/groups involved and potential or existing landowners can ALL negotiate to resolution or at least group majority.

In the end I believe it is ethical AND productive to approach the known expedition originator/s regarding their current intention. If they are at their limit or no longer interested in actively pushing the system-then the new initiative would hopefully get the bonus of past data/experience/support of the originators.This prevents re inventing the wheel and allows moving forward in a positive direction which is good for all involved.


If the original explorers are active -then hopefully interested and able parties can be invited/encouraged to join and support (of course one may have to follow 'when in Rome do as the Romans do" in this scenario)

This is in the scope of virgin exploration/science/survey projects.


I feel completely different if a site has been fully explored(for the most part) and there are NO restrictions needed for conservation IE Lecheguilla access protocols etc

If a site is walled out (the odd errant new small passage here and there aside) and beneficial data can be gleaned by various qualified groups without tainting results of one another's work..then the site should be open to those that can develop the infrastructure and skilled divers to do so.Public sites especially!!


Just my take...love it or hate it LOL

[Arnold Mesiser]

Google is your friend:
http://www.uis-speleo.org/ethic-en.html

I think they're sidestepping what is very complex. Personally, I think no one should scoop another's project. But a person/group can't leave a project fallow forever.

Do you think you have this mindset becuase you are a caver?? or other reasons?

I know this was the mindset presented to me as I mentored -learning to cave and or sump dive (the little that I have done)

I am not sure how many spring trained divers feel this way-based on many posts I have read over time.

[Squirrel Girl]

I am not sure how many spring trained divers feel this way-based on many posts I have read over time.

What do they think?

Isn't that common sense and respect.