Forum for private cave discussion

[Kelly Jessop]

Something that has been discussed,is we are discussing things that for the lay public could be considered a violation of rules,and could upset landowners who view this forum,and defy their trust. Perhaps we need a medium where we can discuss things where we know the only audience will be certified cave/cavern divers. The CDF has many private forums,and perhaps one can be started for this purpose.

[phillip1]

I agree that to landowners and the general public some of the posts could make cave divers look like a bunch of dangerous daredevils and make access etc.. more difficult, so I agree on a private forum for "sensitive" topics.
And also by proven certified cave divers too, as some of the topics are not to be interpreted by novice or untrained divers and could lead to trouble.

[aainslie]

In essence, you're saying that we have been lying to land owners, and you would like us to continue to do so?

As YOU point out, they read this board. You've jsut started a poll that should REALLY piss them off. "Hey guys, we're going to start hiding our thoughts from you".

In general, openness is the better policy IMHO. We all know that divers don't adhere to the rules. Furthermore, we know that deaths are way down, especially given the massive increase in diving. This should be GOOD news. We can improve safety even MORE by NOT being a bunch of ostriches with our heads in the sand, NOT hiding the actuality from people, and having an OPEN discussion about how to improve safety, by setting up rules with high compliance.

[mag3]

Something that has been discussed,is we are discussing things that for the lay public could be considered a violation of rules,and could upset landowners who view this forum,and defy their trust. Perhaps we need a medium where we can discuss things where we know the only audience will be certified cave/cavern divers. The CDF has many private forums,and perhaps one can be started for this purpose.

I can understand restricting the "general" public, but I would not want to restrict to "certified cavern/cave divers only" either. FTR, my cavern program is in progress, and I expect completion before year's end. I can honestly say I've benefited much from viewing the discussion... It has caused me to at least "think," not necessarily "act." Whatever I end up "doing/acting" will be a solution upon which both I and my cave instructor agree beforehand. That said, I'm pretty happy with the existing rules as is. They make intuitive sense to me, presently still being somewhat on the "outside." My personal tendency is to follow all the existing rules 100%, as is my instructor's. That means full/complete continuous guidelines to OW, strict rule of 3rds (maybe slightly more conservatism in low/no flows), etc. etc. But my instructor and I will work that out.

Still, I have enjoyed viewing these discussions. They made me think, and at EOD, they validated my belief in the existing rules. And I'd not want those in my present position (or those in the same position who would follow me) to lose that, if the discussion is hidden from those not yet certified, or worse, not yet "full cave" certified. I have full faith in those rules. But, in order to have "faith" in something, you have to be able to question it.



Just a cavern student's .02

[Kelly Jessop]

In essence, you're saying that we have been lying to land owners, and you would like us to continue to do so?

No,I am saying a place where we can discuss things and you know who the audience is.

As YOU point out, they read this board. You've jsut started a poll that should REALLY piss them off. "Hey guys, we're going to start hiding our thoughts from you".

Have these forums ever been declared as means the public can view our thoughts,or just a forum where viewing by anybody is possible. There are several private forums that require a registration,are you concerned that the Tennessee forum is not allowing you to look at their discussions,are they hiding something from you? How about the NSS-CDS forum for nonmembers etc.

In general, openness is the better policy IMHO. We all know that divers don't adhere to the rules. Furthermore, we know that deaths are way down, especially given the massive increase in diving. This should be GOOD news. We can improve safety even MORE by NOT being a bunch of ostriches with our heads in the sand, NOT hiding the actuality from people, and having an OPEN discussion about how to improve safety, by setting up rules with high compliance.

I agree about openness,but there are sometimes when a private discussion is more appropriate. If someone declares that exceeding thirds in a high flow system is okay,then I think a private discussion of something being beta tested is better. When a dive manufacturer is about the release a new product,do they test it among a small group,and discuss it privately before they send it out to the general public.

Bottom line is that some discussions in the past have had a negative impact,and there have been a couple instances where I have had to do damage control with owners/property manager. If these benign discussions were held privately,then no issue.

[Kelly Jessop]

I can understand restricting the "general" public, but I would not want to restrict to "certified cavern/cave divers only" either. FTR, my cavern program is in progress, and I expect completion before year's end. I can honestly say I've benefited much from viewing the discussion... It has caused me to at least "think," not necessarily "act." Whatever I end up "doing/acting" will be a solution upon which both I and my cave instructor agree beforehand. That said, I'm pretty happy with the existing rules as is. They make intuitive sense to me, presently still being somewhat on the "outside."

Good point. I have some people say that discussions of alternative cave diving rules should be only for full cave,as to not influence the cavern/intro diver in the learning phase. I don't have an opinion,but offered two choices for those have brought this subject up. Good luck or your learning.

[aainslie]

Kelly, read your opening statement. You are advocating setting up a place where landowners cannot see our discussions.

You can interpret that any way you want. I know how I would interpret it if I were a landowner.

How naive do you think people are?

[Kelly Jessop]

Kelly, read your opening statement. ?

Opening statement said the lay public, and land owners as a cause and effect.

I don't think any members on this forum are naive. I made this poll to get the opinion of all the members who provide knowledgeable insight.

I would figure you would like this concept since I understand that some of your "ideas" have inflammed some of the people at the property you happen to be speaking about in a few weeks. Good luck with this

[aainslie]

I didn't say opening sentence, I said opening statement. The second sentence clearly shows intent to hide the discussion from the people mentioned in the first sentence. Sheesh.

And it is naive to think that landowners will be cool with this.

Furthermore I view the discussions that i ahve started as being in the interest of MORE, not LESS safety. Hence, I'm not even sure why you think it's a good idea to hide the public appearance that we take our sport seriously enough that we discuss safety issues openly and publicly.

let me point out another thing. How are you going to check peoples' credentials? And how many people, as a result, will never find the forum? Especially new divers in the future?

Sounds like a "good old boy's" club to me.

[Kelly Jessop]

Sounds like a "good old boy's" club to me.

Sorry private forums for Tennessee Cave Diving,Sump Divers,North Texas Cave Divers,Roppel project etc etc....

You have deemed a good ole boy club,and it is in bad taste to have a private discussion.

I have been moderating the Georgia Cave diving forum because I have a lot of experience and exploration time in these caves,as well as mentor people who want to dive these caves,but I don't want to be SGGOLBC (South Georgia goog ole boys club).