Originally Posted by skip
BTW nice posts. Seems we have a lot in common in terms of our diving philosophies.
Oh - and Andrew's easier to remember. And spell.
Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum.
BTW nice posts. Seems we have a lot in common in terms of our diving philosophies.
Oh - and Andrew's easier to remember. And spell.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
Is it possible at first, they were recommendations. But after a period of time, they realized they was good, and they worked, and therefor evolved into what we now call rules?
I started this thread, just to get an idea of what people are thinking, and for the most part, mission accomplished. I had a feeling that at some point, it would get into personal attacks, but it hasnt gotten as bad as I thought it might, to which I am grateful.
I agree people do need to think more, and not be a bunch of line followers. I will try to avoid using the word "rules" here. It was highly suggested in my cave class, that we do not ever take "short cuts." It seems to me thats where a lot of the accidents seem to be coming from. The time it takes to deploy a jump line, and run it might slow you down by 30 seconds. Not running a line at Little River, Ginnie or Jackson Blue might not really be "necessary" because of the flow, but I know I am not that awesome of a diver where I dont need to practice the skill, and especially in a challenging environment of high flow.
The "Suggestion" of 1/3s in any cave really needs to be taken on a cave by cave basis. I wouldnt have any problem at all diving to full thirds at Peacock, because there are multiple exits in case of a failure. However, for the divers who havent been there much, you probably dont know all the exits yet, and you probably should be a little more conservative. Caves like Madison, Hole in the Wall and other no flow caves, yeah, it probably is a good idea to turn before thirds, just to be sure. But that is where I think the freedom to think a little bit on your own comes in to play. If you leave a stage bottle somewhere in the cave to add to the safety factor, not included in the gas management plan, and a deco bottle, then you could push full 1/3s safely.
I dont have all the accidents analysis if front of me, but from the ones that come to mind, most of the fatalities are by divers not following some of the "highly suggested" practices. With a few exceptions, not the guys pushing 5000 feet back, exploring new caves. I think that is what makes a lot of this so frustrating for the training agencies, recovery teams and land owners. These arent the guys that are on the leading edge of cave exploration and discovery, its people that have a simple dive plan, dont adhere to the "suggestions", and dont come back.
I don't want to pick on you but... this is an interesting idea that i've heard a lot before.
Because, the problem is, you don't ahve a continuous line to those exits.
So you're only OK... if your'e happy breaking another rule.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
That is a good point. That might be the time your safety reel comes into effect. Tie into the main line, and run your safety to he outside world. If somehow you cant find it, you still have a cont line back to the main line.
Not to hijack the thread, but it is about following the rules. Is there anyone out there who does not start a dive with 3600 in a set of lp doubles? Doubled burst disks are definitely a violation of the rules, yet if you dismantle all the doubles in FL, I suspect there would be very few that conform to OSHA regs. There are many diy people out there innovating every day, and obviously breaking the established "guidelines" to do it. Bravo to FW and his Home Depot plumbing parts! What about Sheck and his inverted milk jugs? Or his wax sealed flashlights? The names Wilber and Orvill Wright come to mind. It is that very spirit of innovation and daring that has opened up most of the caves that are dived today. And I suspect that it will continue to be so in the future. While following the guidelines does increase the safety of cave diving, it is still an inherently risky activity. Sheck wrote the book on cave diving safety, yet still died in a cave pushing the known limits. You can do everything right and still die. And you can do everything wrong and still live, for a while, anyways.
That was the point of my last statement. When you are pushing the limits, and living on the edge, your risk goes up, no doubt. But these accidents we are seeing now, thats not pushing the limits, thats taking unnecessary short cuts.
Rules in Peacock and Madison
I am puzzled by comments that it isn't safe to dive Peacock or Madison to thirds. Are we talking about Madison Blue? On both of my dives there, the current was strong enough to ride out without kicking. I exited with more than half of my gas left. In Peacock I, I can get out on 70 - 85% of my penetration gas consumption.
Is my problem that my SAC is so high that I can't get into the low-flow parts of these caves ? In that case, thirds is safe for me until my SAC gets better.
Is there another hazard in these caves that I should be taking into account?
"I like to do dangerous things safely."
Because in no flow cave with 3rds, you are turning your dive on your 1st 3rd, thats a normal SAC and under normal conditions. Now if your buddy is OOG, you both probably going to have spiked SAC rates. If you even have a spike sac rate you are going to use your second 3rd before you are out and will be into your reserve and you both will not have enough to exit.
It's worked well for years. It's partly a justification by some to claim that breaking thirds to some undetermined extent might be justifiable if you have flow by comparison to thirds in some cave without flow.
If you are actually at Peacock you've only got a few places in the system that there isn't an exit close by. If you know the system you've got better options then depending on the flow to get you out.
Fairly said though actual max penetration, thirds, no flow, silt is the ideal "worst case scenario" everyone has done the "lights out air sharing drill with a buddy" and learned that thirds really isn't enough air to get you out. There are other scenarios also where thirds may not be enough and low flow / low vis accounts for a fair share of those cases.
The whole "lights out air sharing drill with a buddy" "worst case scenario" isn't really the worst case scenario. Gear failures aren't very often the cause of cave accidents. Of the dozens of different things that can go wrong "air share exit" or "single tank failure self supplied exit" are just two. There are others - some better some worse. Thirds is just a rough answer that has been shown to protect "OK" over time.
If you are in the cave, anywhere near thirds, and you look at where you are and see likelihood of trouble (tight passage, another diver that may be headed into trouble, buddy communication problems, regulator acting funny, unstable passage, whatever) it could be a good time to call it for the dive and come back either with more time, more gas, or cleared up problems. Just looking around and learning the lay of the land in the area could improve your situation next time around.
If one isn't aware of the cave, ignores signs of trouble, and fails to take extra precautions when one should then thirds may not be enough. Actually, even if one is aware, the fickle gods of chance could land a horrible undeserved situation on you. Thirds is good enough to cover 99.99% but extra safety is a great thing. Saving a little more gas for the exit is one way to improve your chances. 100 psi either way can shift 99.99% to 99.9% or to 99.999% - but cave awareness could be just as useful.
Interesting. I finally got into Madison Blue during my recent Cave 2 class, and there was essentially no discernible flow at all. It was such a relief . . .Are we talking about Madison Blue? On both of my dives there, the current was strong enough to ride out without kicking.
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