When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

[phillip1]

Interesting thread, what amazes me is that instead of taking
a minute to place a reel no matter what the gap, people will choose to increase the dive's disk and do a visual.
What does it cost to place a reel? 1-2 mins? As oposed to a possible disaster? The "rules " are a guideline if somehow you can do things in an even more conservative and safe way then do, but to
disregard safety rules and somehow think that it's okay is suicidal.
I think that many people do many uneventfull dives and then start to lose respect for the caves and start to think that it is not as dangerous as one might have once thought it was.
Experience and complacency are two completly different things.
If $hit hits the fan, and you would be a complete fool to think it won't, you better make sure you have enough gas and a continous guideline to safely get out or you might be the topic of another thread as to why he did a visual etc...

[Ken Hill]

Glad to see this debate continues.

Kelly, Ken, et al - you guys always give the NEGATIVE examples of changing the rules. Let me give three POSITIVE ones (that I've given before but that keep getting forgotten):
. ... Little has changed in 20-30 years.

You start your post with a generalization. I discussed the need to follow rules and asked posters to not discuss specific techniques of how to bend the rules on a public forum. Your preferences and what YOU DO to make things better for you may have upsides but they may have many more downsides for the cave diving community.

You’re wrong in that a lot has changed in the past 20-30 years. Better equipment and "Visa cards" that resulted in many to rely on technology over technique. More recently, the Internet where anyone with dubious background can offer advice and instruction. More trained diver deaths and untrained diver deaths have resulted.

The rules are the minimum starting point for planning a dive. They resulted in observations made from accident analysis and grew into standards of training, the uniform first steps for all to follow. If you've come up with the better mousetrap why not email it to your dive buddies and discuss with them how "in and out" cookies are supposed to be placed. Posting your anecdotal preferences with statements that the rules don't need to be followed does nothing to promote the safety of the sport.

You have a responsibility, be aware of that. /Ken

[tflaris]

Not the divers I know that have been around for a while! So lets go from here. Is it your assumption that if the rules are changed the new rules will never be challenged and always be followed?

If they are not followed, isn't it likely the new rules will be bent even further? If so should we should think about changing the training process to fit the new paradigm, after all the new rules should be absolute.

New gas rules discussed here seem real similar to what Naval Aviation refers to "bingo fuel" as the pre-briefed amount of fuel for an aircraft that would allow a safe return to the base of intended landing. Aircraft that "fly or fight" past bingo fuel in combat situations do so at considerable peril. We have thirds as a minimum starting computation any deviation of that increases the odds of an accident. We haven't invented in cave refueling yet.

It's my belief opinions stated here that go against the accepted training and common wisdom and accepted rules do NOTHING to make cave divers safer! It may in fact harm them, even if only to make someone a little more lax. Discussing this on an internet sites makes about as much sense as the clip I've attached .... Why? Some may say some cleverly worded or presented BS must be true. /Ken



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw

Wow that's a cool video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I imagine that we are break rules for what ever reason we justify to break that rule and this could change due to internal or external forces and from day to day.

The real question is terrorist or hero? If someone doesn't agree with me or you are they a terrorist. Could it be their own life experiences have forged them to believe something else?

Is it right?

Is it wrong?

Does it challenge what we believe?

Does this challenge threaten us or our lifestyles?

For example a Rebreather Diver diver told me that he doesn't use any gauges on his O2 or Dill bottles which I consider a must. My response "do what works for you."

It would be difficult at best to advocate a method that works every single time in every single situations. Which it what the 5 rules of cave diving have tried to do.

Are they perfect?

Do they work most of the time for most people?

Do we know how many times a rule can be broken before it becomes life threatening causing death?

I have always told my Dive students that the personality you have on the surface will be the same personality you will have underwater.

Do you plan ahead?

Do you lead?

Do you follow?

Have you thought about the what if's?

Are you in over your head?

Are you an optimist that everything will work out?

Are you a pessimist assuming the worst will happen?

Are you pushing the boundaries looking around the corner?

Are you satisfied where you are?

Do you want to know or learn more?

Is it a activity or a lifestyle?

What's inside of you?

In the beginning I broke a few rules. Dove outside my certification level. Didn't always run jump reels (did a few visual jumps), a couple of trust me dives. I always weighted the risk versus reward assuming that I could figure it out as I went.

To a large degree I was very successful (lucky?) But the few times I wasn't successful (unlucky) will stay with me considerable longer than those perfect dives.

Could any of those unsuccessful moments killed me?

Possibly or was it the survival instinct inside me to stay alive that kept me alive.

Was it my faith in my beliefs that enabled me to get through the moment?

If I told you I broke the rules will that validate your actions or will you seek to condone?

Looking back and looking forward brings a quote to mind

"You only know what you know and that's all you know" Mike Mcauliffe (spelling?)

I learn more from near failures than from successes.

The more I dive the more I can see that a small breakdown in the rules can lead to a big problem.

But it doesn't mean it will.

But it may.

There's the variable........the unlucky Bingo winner

[Bob Cree]

... More recently, the Internet where anyone with dubious background can offer advice and instruction. More trained diver deaths and untrained diver deaths have resulted...

You have a responsibility, be aware of that. /Ken

Responsibility has a formal term in cave diving...mentorship!

If we really want to help new cave divers figure it out safely - then the more experienced have to directly step up to the plate. My main mentor over the years has told me as such (multiple times), so I now make a concerted effort to seek out diving with newer folks on occasion. If we all made an effort to pass it on - we would all be better off for it...even you solo studs could buddy up every now and then.

From the highlights of veteran cave divers posting here (the in-water kind), I draw the following conclusion...its not all about you.

[Bob Cree]

Glad to see this debate continues.

...no one knows how to dive siphons. A lot of people said "dive sixths".

Could not agree more - siphons are really nasty on the gas side and most folks should just stay out of them. Believe me, 1/3rds thinking will definitely lead to a fatality and 1/6ths may even not be enough. I think this is where the more detailed analysis like Andrew has posted in the past comes into play.

I dove a siphon with one of my mentors who has been around the block more than a few times, and I remember thinking he was leading in excessively slow and turned really early...of course he had the experience - I didn't - he had even warned me ahead of time (and another shameless plug for the value of mentorship!).

I learned from that dive that you can really get into trouble VERY easily on a dive like this and afterward made it a point to study it alot more - in fact I have since used a famous (or depending on your perspective, infamous?) spreadsheet published here on the boards - I found it very helpful, and the results for a siphon are scary. Just about like the dive.

See Andrew, you do come up with something good to say on occasion!

I also don't think folks fully appreciate that 1/3rds thinking is not appropriate in no-flow caves either.

I agree with FW on the higher outflow caves though - let 1/3rds apply - it is simple and safe! Can't go wrong. And that is what we want.

[skip]

Have you heard of,"Blueprint to Survival"? I know it probably is a bothersome,and out of date text since it does focus on the negative. Each chapter starts with a scenario that is negative,while Sheck could have been more positive ie the family has one less mouth to feed. It is hard not to be negative when you've had 3 friends die in cave diving accidents where rules violations were the precipitating cause,plus having to help recover a body in a situation that was totally preventable. I know you've got 200 cave dives where you think your rationalization has enhanced your survival,I have 1300+ cave dives where I know following the rules have saved my life on few occasions. But,I am intellectually challanged as I discovered,so what do I know.

well, I'm going to jump on you again! sorry in advance and hope you understand it's nothing personal. having just reread Basic Cave Diving: A blue print for survival, I noticed that no time did sheck call them "rules." They are chapter headings. And there are 10 of them. The last page lists the "Ten Recommendation for Safe Cave Diving." Recommendations.

I seriously doubt that Sheck considered them rules or would be happy that others have. Recommendations....Chapter Headings....Avoidance of the word Rules... I think he understood that post hoc observations can not give cause-effect results (as you read his book it's obvious he's avoiding any language in which could be taken as a cause-effect statement).

On another note, i've received a lot of good pm's from viewers of this thread (by good I mean informative), all of which jump on me as a rule-breaker. I just want to clarify that I don't break the "rules." I follow them more than many I know, always run a guideline, always dive thirds or less (fourths), carry 4 lights, not 3, am the first one to insist on s drills, etc.

And another note: Anslie (sp?) has caused me to more seriously review the thirds rule on my no-flow (and slight siphon) dives. Yes, I have dove Peacock to near thirds (200 psi short of thirds), and have dove our local 10 foot viz to near thirds as well (no flow systems). I bailed earlier the other day on a slow flow siphon dive (before thirds), but I was getting cold, not thinking about how much gas to reserve for the exit. I am still not sure how to come up with gas rules for low viz, low flow, siphon dives, how much to reserve compared to thirds. But I am working on it.

I do know that although my instructors always emphasized that thirds was often not conservative enough, it was never clear just what to do about it, or when. That may have been my failing, not their's, but I it may be that training agencies are not doing enough to discuss gas management in low flow systems and siphons.

PS: i was a bit surprised in rereading "Blueprint" that the last 5 of 10 recommendations were almost the same as the recommendations based on accident analysis for the new millenium by bozniac! I don't think it's outdated at all, rather I think "Blueprint" is still relevant and more so now that I've reread and realized there's more than the basic 5!

-skip

[aainslie]

Sheesh Skip! How many times are you going to misspell my name?

Andrew Ainslie, Skip. It's in the foot of every post I make.


A I N S L I E

Scottish. Think McKenzie.

OK?

[skip]

how about andrew? i can spell that! but I think I got it now. A I N S L I E

AINSLIE, ainslie, ainslie, ainslie, ainslie ainslie...ahhh feel the motor memory.

ainslie

ainslie

-skip

Sheesh Skip! How many times are you going to misspell my name?

Andrew Ainslie, Skip. It's in the foot of every post I make.


A I N S L I E

Scottish. Think McKenzie.

OK?

[Rich]

Andrew Ainslie, Skip. It's in the foot of every post I make?

Hey Andrew, I think you're missing an s in your domain name.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[aainslie]

Hey Andrew, I think you're missing an s in your domain name.....

Safe diving,

Rich