When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

[MORGAN]

Excellent Post!

Agreed!

Mike

[Sludge]

So in short,

Too late!

[Ken Hill]

Here is why rules should be questioned and changed.

Almost EVERY diver I know, after a few dives, starts bending the rules. .r")

Not the divers I know that have been around for a while! So lets go from here. Is it your assumption that if the rules are changed the new rules will never be challenged and always be followed?

If they are not followed, isn't it likely the new rules will be bent even further? If so should we should think about changing the training process to fit the new paradigm, after all the new rules should be absolute.

New gas rules discussed here seem real similar to what Naval Aviation refers to "bingo fuel" as the pre-briefed amount of fuel for an aircraft that would allow a safe return to the base of intended landing. Aircraft that "fly or fight" past bingo fuel in combat situations do so at considerable peril. We have thirds as a minimum starting computation any deviation of that increases the odds of an accident. We haven't invented in cave refueling yet.

It's my belief opinions stated here that go against the accepted training and common wisdom and accepted rules do NOTHING to make cave divers safer! It may in fact harm them, even if only to make someone a little more lax. Discussing this on an internet sites makes about as much sense as the clip I've attached .... Why? Some may say some cleverly worded or presented BS must be true. /Ken



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw

[contender]

It's really pretty simple, follow the rules or modify them to your liking, just remeber statistics don't mean a damn thing when your dead.

[Ken Hill]

It's really pretty simple, follow the rules or modify them to your liking, just remeber statistics don't mean a damn thing when your dead.

No, its not that simple! Recoveries have been made more difficult because divers modified their plans, were found in tunnels that they were not supposed to be in or deeper, farther back and sometimes going the wrong way. These things mean increased danger to those doing the recovery.

There is no excuse for being irresponsible which is what I see as getting a wink and a nod in this thread. /Ken

[MengTze]

..... Discussing this on an internet sites makes about as much sense as the clip I've attached .... Why? Some may say some cleverly worded or presented BS must be true. /Ken



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw

That clip tells me that sheep can be herded into doing anything, even making believable pretty pictures and fire works.

[contender]

No, its not that simple! Recoveries have been made more difficult because divers modified their plans, were found in tunnels that they were not supposed to be in or deeper, farther back and sometimes going the wrong way. These things mean increased danger to those doing the recovery.

There is no excuse for being irresponsible which is what I see as getting a wink and a nod in this thread. /Ken

Ken,
I think you missed my point. I was trying to say that if you want to bend the rules go ahead but you don't have to spread it all over the boards. If someone is going to break the rules, you can't stop them, sorry that's just the way it is, like it or not. So yes it really is that simple!

If we could stop people from breaking the rules, we would not need cops, prisons or a justice system now would we?

[MengTze]

....
If we could stop people from breaking the rules, we would not need cops, prisons or a justice system now would we?

Would we need rules at all?

[skip]

Ken,
I think you missed my point. I was trying to say that if you want to bend the rules go ahead but you don't have to spread it all over the boards.

You guys don't get it. Bending the rules (bending? or creating?) is the only way to progress to rules that actually save lives. i think that's what aanslie (sp?) is beating his head against the wall to express. exley is dead. he was a thinking diver who gave us the stone tablet, but he didn't say do what I say and stop thinking about it forever more.

And to splatter it all over the internet is today's best way to get divers to think for themselves and save their lives. Those who disagree will at least have considered, or reconsidered, their reasoning (a good thing). Even those who don't participate will hear about it from those who do and the trickle down effect will improve cave diving safety for us all.

Don't tell me that the rules of cave diving are sacred and never to be changed, that experience and logical thought have nothing to offer to the betterment of our safety. I may or may not agree with aainslee (sp?), but his insistence that there is still much to learn is undeniable.

-skip

[DA Aquamaster]

You guys don't get it. Bending the rules (bending? or creating?) is the only way to progress to rules that actually save lives. i think that's what aanslie (sp?) is beating his head against the wall to express. exley is dead. he was a thinking diver who gave us the stone tablet, but he didn't say do what I say and stop thinking about it forever more.

Absolutely - that is where the bigger picture of what the purpose of a particular rule is in the first place is so important. It is the larger intent of the rule that matters, not the letter of the rule itself, as over time the ruel itself may need to change or may become completly obsolete as technology changes or as the practices of cave diving improve and evolve.

If we all followed the rules 100% of the time in all situations, we'd never try anything new, we'd never adapt and nothing would ever change. There are plateaus in the process from time to time where change is incremental and evolutionary rather than revolutionary, but it should still be a never ending process of continuing improvement.