When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

[jkola]

Its just like my gas discussions. Thirds is stupidly conservative in Ginnie. And stupidly dangerous in Peacock.


I read your discussion about gas management, and was impressed with your arguements, thought process, and decisions that affect your diving. I think that I understand you point about "rules" too.
I have to take exception with these statements however. I think that perhaps you may have gone to far by catagorizing general guidelines for the whole community (and teaching standards) as "stupidly conservative" and "stupidly dangerous" without supporting your arguement.
Often inconvienient, or inefficient? Without a doubt, but I understand why we have these guidelines and appreciate the losses and process that got us to this point.
I sincerly appreciate your comments and ideas in this interesting and informative discussion.

[Rich]

..

[aainslie]

Its just like my gas discussions. Thirds is stupidly conservative in Ginnie. And stupidly dangerous in Peacock.


I read your discussion about gas management, and was impressed with your arguements, thought process, and decisions that affect your diving. I think that I understand you point about "rules" too.
I have to take exception with these statements however. I think that perhaps you may have gone to far by catagorizing general guidelines for the whole community (and teaching standards) as "stupidly conservative" and "stupidly dangerous" without supporting your arguement.
Often inconvienient, or inefficient? Without a doubt, but I understand why we have these guidelines and appreciate the losses and process that got us to this point.
I sincerly appreciate your comments and ideas in this interesting and informative discussion.

OK, I'll amend it to:

Thirds is veeeery conservative in Ginnie. And stupidly dangerous in Peacock.

[rjack]

OK, I'll amend it to:

Thirds is veeeery conservative in Ginnie.

Yet, based on your poll results, many people can't seem to wrap their heads around this and won't dip into their copious reserves when a buddy is lost off the mainline.

[ScubaBob-Squaretank]

These rules are guidlines for the general population of divers. Not everyone feels the need to follow them all, or all the time. You would hope that most people think of the end result of there desicion before they make it. Now take in the possible changing conditions, and situations. And see if you feel comfortable with making this decisions.
People tend to get very complacent after doing so many dives with no real problem. It seems to take either a close call of our own to make us rethink our actions.
I am shocked at some of the high gas pressures that people were leaving the cave with, in a lost buddy situation. I asked two of my dive buddies what pressure they would leave the cave with. Both divers said 600 lbs. I take great comfort in knowing that they will give me every opportunity to make it back safely.
Bob

[Gary]

Thirds is stupidly conservative in Ginnie.

One one my earliest memories of cave diving was revolves around someone who said the same thing about Little River.

He took the time to explain his theories to the cave class at the entrance, did his dive, got lost off the line in a silt out. They recovered his body still 1300' in.

Clearly his theory was incorrect.

[El Toro]

Good point.

Experience does not necessarily lead itself to complacency; experience allows us to build upon the guidelines we all learned in class. When I first got my driver’s license, it wasn’t very long before I figured out that most people drive faster than the posted speed limit. As I gained more driving experience, I learned to slow down in the rain or on unfamiliar roads or when there was a cop in the rear view mirror. The rule of thirds is a good guideline to build upon but we all need to use our heads. “Ginnie thirds” is also a viable guideline that many have learned through experience.

Back to the question of lost diver turn pressure, based on my experience at Ginnie, I have a pretty good feel for how much gas I need to get from Hill 400 or the Expressway to the exit and I would use that experience to judge how much gas I could use for a search. I can’t imagine how bad I would feel if I had a buddy lost in the cave and I was sitting at deco with 1,200 psi in my tanks.

These rules are guidlines for the general population of divers. Not everyone feels the need to follow them all, or all the time. You would hope that most people think of the end result of there desicion before they make it. Now take in the possible changing conditions, and situations. And see if you feel comfortable with making this decisions.
People tend to get very complacent after doing so many dives with no real problem. It seems to take either a close call of our own to make us rethink our actions.
I am shocked at some of the high gas pressures that people were leaving the cave with, in a lost buddy situation. I asked two of my dive buddies what pressure they would leave the cave with. Both divers said 600 lbs. I take great comfort in knowing that they will give me every opportunity to make it back safely.
Bob

[Kelly Jessop]

When people ignore seat belt rule,or choose not to wear a helmet on a motorcycle,then they leave us dirty laundry, there are no negative consequences. When we screw up cave diving and have an accident there are concerns by landowners,and can have loss of sites. To illustrate,when there was an accident not too long ago,the owner of a site that we had recently gotten open,suddenly had some concern,and we had to give assurances that this wouldn't happen there. Wonder why some systems are guided systems? At least under a guided system there is greater assurance that the rules will be followed.

[Meister481]

Thirds, I don't break it, ever. I've never dove to thirds for a couple reasons, one- my sac rate is lower than all my buddies, Two- If I'm solo with AL, I go to thirds in back gas and never touch AL. Scootering I'll do thirds in my stages and turn at 3000 in back gas. Tons of gas, but you might need it if you're 5000' back in JB and experience a silt out.

That's my personal preference. I've dove with people who came out with 600 psi before, and I had 1500. After that I changed the dive plan to make sure he could make the circuits and not have to push the gas plan. Or I just brought Al anyway.

[aquadog196]

When is the last time you've seen a team in the water preparing their dive do a complete "S" drill?