When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

[OneBrightGator]

Quick! Someone call Andrew and tell him he must've left himself signed on where there are people with common sense, rationality, reasoning, sensibility, good manners & tact!

[Randy Thornton]

Marius and Andrew,

I very much appreciate both of your most recent posts on this thread. This type of accident analysis is the very core of developing future procedures for the technical and cave diving community. I applaud everyone's time and efforts to understand this enormous tragedy.

Regards,
Randy

[Sludge]

Just a few thoughts.

Excellent first post, Marius. Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum, and I hope you'll continue to post here, as you obviously have much to share.

One thing I must point out, though. If I'm exiting the Devil system, solo, at night, and the floodlight goes out, and my primary light and three backups all quit, and there's a freak siltout and I develop severe vertigo, I'm going to figure the Good Lord's telling me my time is up.

[divindoubles]

Excellent first post, Marius. Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum, and I hope you'll continue to post here, as you obviously have much to share.

One thing I must point out, though. If I'm exiting the Devil system, solo, at night, and the floodlight goes out, and my primary light and three backups all quit, and there's a freak siltout and I develop severe vertigo, I'm going to figure the Good Lord's telling me my time is up.

Uh, wait a minute. We didn't go over that one in class! ;o(o)

[FW]

......1) Dive to thirds. I actually think that this is a good rule - with three riders.

First, I would like divers to be told categorically that this does not work in sumps. I think this is done already, so no biggie there. .......

Sumps? Do you mean Syphons? Sumps (pools of water in a "dry" cave) can be upstream, or downstream. Syphons are always downstream.

[LiteHedded]

Excellent first post, Marius. Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum, and I hope you'll continue to post here, as you obviously have much to share.

One thing I must point out, though. If I'm exiting the Devil system, solo, at night, and the floodlight goes out, and my primary light and three backups all quit, and there's a freak siltout and I develop severe vertigo, I'm going to figure the Good Lord's telling me my time is up.

AHA!
but I'LL be ready!

[RN]

...I would like to see a FORMAL reccommendation to divers on the ADDED margin needed in a no- or low-flow cave. Here's an easy one - drop your usable thirds by 100 psi. So let's say you have 3400. You round to 3300 - that gives you 1100 usable. Now, DROP THIS BY ANOTHER 100 in no flow to 1000. That means your turn is at 3400-1000 = 2400. Many have argued that the problem with some of my suggestions has been that they're too complex or too vague. This one is dead easy to write into the standards...

I'd like to see this as well. However, it doesn't even have to be written into the standards. It just needs to be put out there that this should be done. I teach every on of my students this method of gas management. While 100 psi may not seem like a lot on the front end, it effectively adds at least 300 psi of extra reserve gas. Starting with 3600, turn at 2500 (1100 in). 2/3 is 2200 + 300 more. This could make the difference. Sure, the chance of having a catastrophic gas failure at furthest penetration are very small, but it exists. I even recommend to my students that in new systems to them they subtract 200psi. This gives them at least 600 more. That's 38 cf in a set of 85s. And how much more will they really see with 200psi more penetration?!?

2) Continuous guideline to the surface. This is actually a good rule...

I agree it's a good rule, but it's one that people are going to break. It's probably the most commonly broken rule. Knowing that someday some of my students will probably break this rule, I at least give them a way to deal with an exit in which they now encounter that gap. I will refrain from posting it here, though.

3) 3 lights - Damn right! In fact I'd like to see 4 lights as a standard with the 4th available to signal cave exit in a lost buddy scenario, as currently informally taught by many instructors.

I carry a primary and a mask light (both on) and 3 additional lights that are off. Fortunately, I've never had to go beyond deploying 1 backup light and I've yet to be in complete darkness because of my mask light.

A final point - none of this obviates the need for us all to discuss this stuff really carefully, and to continue to innovate and improve. I'd be ecstatic of all my discussions about gas management led to one thing, and one thing only - a formal, simple rule about how to increase reserves for no flow caves.

Good point, and I'd like to see the gas management rules modified as well. Too many people head into a cave on the simple rule of 1/3s and never give thought to whether that's really enough gas. Not only do I teach my students to modify the rule, but I also time them during the lost line drills and touch contact exits to bring home the point that it's not enough!

[aainslie]

Sumps? Do you mean Syphons? Sumps (pools of water in a "dry" cave) can be upstream, or downstream. Syphons are always downstream.

Sorry - brain fart. Syphons is indeed what I meant.

[WEPIV]

Marius and Andrew,

I very much appreciate both of your most recent posts on this thread. This type of accident analysis is the very core of developing future procedures for the technical and cave diving community. I applaud everyone's time and efforts to understand this enormous tragedy.

Regards,
Randy

Ditto... This is what we need more often and not people verbally attacking each other for whatever reason.

[Atomic_Diver]

speaking of breaking rules, what do you think of an intro diver diving Doubles on 1/3 and using his No Deco time on 1/3 as well.....friend of mine came up with the idea, and i said i am not sure thats the best idea (adding too what experence level of an intro diver)