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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFG-1 View Post
    ROAD the short bus?? Well, how was the ride, Kelly?

    Postulates? Man, I hate it when my doctor checks my postulate. He has long crooked fingers.
    not to mention that HUGE diver's watch!


    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie View Post
    Thanks for the heads up. I'll make sure your doc keeps his fingers away from my axiom.
    This is what I use in meetings for people who 'jump to conclusions'. You ought to see the looks I get.

    "Isn't that what causes pre-mature extrapolation?"

    I may be schizophrenic, but at least I have each other.

    ...Sometimes you have to give them enough rope to hang themselves, sometimes you have to use that rope as a Garrotte!..

  2. #112
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    Default the big deal

    Quote Originally Posted by BearCub View Post
    Seems to me there's a lot of semantic mumbo-jumbo about 'rules' vs 'guidelines' in this thread. What's the big deal about calling them rules? Don't you have to learn the 'rules' to pass your 'tests' in order to get your cave-diving certification? Whether Sheck thought they were guidelines or not then, they're rules now.
    rules, guidelines, recommendations...the thing is what the words produce in terms of future behavior. I was the bus driver for Kelly's ride on the short bus (funny analogy, but really Kelly has never been on the short bus in anything, certainly not cave diving). Rules, more than other terms, are too often taken as gospel and thus provide cognitive narrowing.

    Recommendations on the other hand (Sheck's original terminology) are not typically taken as gospel, rather that term requires a person to consider and think about what they mean and if indeed they apply exactly as stated in all circumstances.

    I realize neat little sound bites for "rules" allow for good memory, quick response (although not always correct response), and make for an easier time teaching (follow the rules or you will die). But this kind of rule-following is not what most cave instructors desire (I hope) from their students and it further suggests that there is a cause-effect between following/not following rules and survival/not surviving, which is simply not true.

    The accident which caused this thread may or may not have been caused by lack of a continuous guideline, incorrect gas management, poor situational awareness, etc. Even with such things occurring, there is no way to know if they were contributory factors or not. Many divers have survived even when violating the "rules."

    Now if you ask me if I plan a dive ignoring the Recommendations, well, hell no! That would be asking for trouble!

    -skip

    Last edited by Sludge; 09-15-2009 at 02:52 PM. Reason: bbcode
    "Learning the techniques of others does not interfere with the discovery of techniques of one's own." B.F. Skinner, 1970.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    I realize neat little sound bites for "rules" allow for good memory, quick response (although not always correct response), and make for an easier time teaching (follow the rules or you will die).
    I agree. Kind of like CPR. There are other things that can be done that will enhance survival,but if you task load the general population,then the key steps get missed,and survival rate goes the wrong way.

    "Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick

  4. #114

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    I don't usually post on forums, but having read this thread and the related thread on Bruce's accident, as well as having had an interchange with Skip, I thought I would just add some comments and my own views to the mix.

    These discussions on violating the 5 golden rules/guidelines of cave diving, particularly in light of the recent accident, seem to me to be a little dangerous. This is particularly so since a number of posters (including Andrew who should know better, no offense intended) seem to me to be in denial over what happened largely because they are constantly violating some rather minimal, common sense rules/guidelines, especially the one relating to having a continuous line to open water.

    The 5 rules/guidelines, represent a minimum. They also represent common sense. Change in terms of increased conservatism is fine, but the reverse is not fine and is simply asking for trouble as accident analysis has clearly shown empirically, time and time again (even if the analysis lacks statistical rigor). Indeed, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of deaths of trained cave divers (with the exception of Parker Turner's) have involved violations of one of the 5 rules/guidelines of cave diving, and they have invariably been due to either complacency or going beyond one's training and abilities (i.e. too far too soon).

    In the case of Ginnie, there is no doubt that many people get away with not placing jumps. As Andrew pointed out you don't need to lay a line to drive to your local neighborhood store to pick up milk. But let's see how good he is at finding his local store or getting back home from it if the visibility was suddenly reduced to 1 ft (not incidentally impossible for anybody who has experienced a London fog/smog before they banned coal and wood fires). Let's see how good he would be if he had a mild heart attack or stroke, or a case of vertigo. In a high flow system such as Ginnie, a total silt out in many places can usually just be waited out for a few minutes, but not always, and certainly not everywhere (including Harry's crack, the Double lines, Sherwood splits, etc...). You never know what's going to happen, and it is those freak incidents that the golden cave rules/guidelines are meant to protect against, no matter how experienced a cave diver one may be.

    Lets take a couple of really simple examples. I've noticed that many people don't feel the need to place a jump from the Gold line to the Hill 400, and I have had many discussions where such people have said that they can easily get from the Hill 400 to the Gold line in a total silt out/lights out situation. However, why would one want to subject oneself to additional stress to find the gold line effectively blind, when it would be trivial to just follow the jump line and not have to worry about it. The same is true for laying a primary line in the Ear or Eye. Again I've heard many people say that even in a total lights out situation they could find their way out from the start of the Gold Line to open water. But I'm not so sure in a real situation that they would fare that well, particularly if there were other factors coming into play as well (such as a limited gas supply, some medical problem, etc...). Let's say it's at night and the Ginnie flood light is off. Your lights have failed (including backup lights) or there is a total freak siltout or something's happened to your ears and you've suddenly got vertigo. In a training setting sure one could find one's way out the Ear (with a little luck and some time, and providing one doesn't get turned around), but when the real deal hits totally unexpectedly the stress level is going to be quite a lot higher. But if one has a primary line in, its a piece of cake to just OK it and follow it to open water with no (or minimal) stress at all.

    So this is what I think happened with Bruce (purely speculative of course), and why I believe that placing jumps is so critical with absolutely NO exceptions. The divers decide they are going to do Harry's crack and they scope the exit (on the Expressway side) and the entrance on the Gold Line side, without laying any jump reels. Bruce goes into Harry's crack without laying a jump line and creates a massive silt cloud (either by accident, or because it's impossible not to from that side, or because his skill levels are not up to the task, even though he probably had over a thousand dives in the Devil's system). His buddy, quite rightly doesn't feel comfortable following since there is no way he can even see the start of the line in Harry's crack from the main passage. Bruce doesn't stop when he goes in but continues swimming, oblivious that his buddy isn't behind him. Had Bruce laid a line, and then waited until his buddy came (following standard protocol) or not as the case may be, there wouldn't have been an issue. Moreover, with a line in place, his buddy could have put his head in and flashed Bruce down. At some stage Bruce realizes that his buddy is not behind him and has an "Oh ****" moment. This may have been while Bruce was still in Harry's crack or had exited on the Expressway side (we'll never know). But either way, since the plan was to go into Harry's crack, Bruce is under the assumption that his buddy did follow and that he's stuck somewhere. Obviously a bad situation. So Bruce goes back in to look for his buddy. At this point, the whole of Harry's crack is silted out and Bruce is going blind, anxiety is increasing, etc...., progress is slow. (i.e. this isn't a question of being in a silt out for a minute or so but for a prolonged period of time in tight, silty passage). He manages to exit on the Gold line side, but there is a complete silt out at the exit, and he cannot see (he may not even realize he's out of Harry's crack and has no line to follow), he goes under the gold line, manages to get hold of the Hill 400 line, and for whatever reason continues up the Hill 400 line. At this point he probably doesn't even know whether he's on the Hill 400 side, or the Expressway side, his vision and thinking have tunneled, and he probably doesn't even look at his pressure gauge until it's too late. He's found 400 ft up the Hill 400. Assuming a swim rate of 50 ft per minute, that's 8 minutes, which would have been more than sufficient to get to the log in the Ear and onto his O2 bottle, albeit somewhat tight. As for the hypothesis that he went looking for his buddy in the Wormhole, there too, had they followed the continuous guideline rule, his buddy would have laid a jump line; if this wasn't there, then Bruce would immediately have known that his buddy wasn't in the wormhole. So from whatever angle you look at this, everything boils down to not running lines at all jumps. The other factor, of course, is that ultimately Bruce clearly didn't leave himself enough gas reserves (ipso facto since his tanks were found empty). Of course, he might have also suffered some medical event that would have impaired him either mentally or physically for a period of time, or some partial equipment failure (such as a free flowing reg) that would have slowed him down; but then again, not having a continuous line sure didn't help.

    So why is laying lines at jumps so important in my view. (a) It provides a continuous guideline to open water so that if the **** hits the fan (silt out, mild panic attack, mild heartache, vertigo, etc....) one can just go back to muscle memory and follow the line without thinking. (b) It provides time to make and think about transitions (something Larry Green wrote about some time ago in the NACD journal); i.e. you install a line across the jump, you wait until your buddy comes over, you signal each other OK and then go on; without placing a jump, the tendency is just to go. (c) It avoids complacency (and if one is complacent about putting in jumps, then it isn't a stretch that one might become complacent or take short cuts with regard to other issues). (d) Placing jumps with spools/reels with one's name on it, allows others to come looking for you should the worst happen. With no jumps in place, how is anybody going to find you in a system as large and complex as Devil's. (e) Placing reels, jumps, etc... maintains muscle memory so that when one actually needs to use a reel in an emergency situation one doesn't fumble. And believe me, if one doesn't practice, skills rapidly go. I recently dove with somebody, who shall be nameless, who rarely placed a jump reel/spool in Devil's. No big deal for me as I always place them and enjoy doing so (I will never do any visual jumps and I always run a line to open water, including in the Ear carrying several stages and towing a scooter). But on one dive I told him that he should place one and indicated which one; guess what, he fumbled, took a really long time (because with a scooter in hand he'd probably never placed a jump) and then misplaced the snap clip pointing into the cave rather than towards the exit (i.e. back on the jump line as it should have been). Clearly he was out of practice which suggests that in an emergency situation such as a real lost line situation in a complete silt out or lights out, he might have some difficulty.

    So lets look at the 5 rules/guidelines (in no particular order):

    1. Dive to 1/3rds at maximum penetration; now that's pretty liberal and represent the bare minimum of conservatism. Clearly one has to reserve at least twice as much gas as one needs to exit (with 2/3 of one's starting gas at the point of maximum penetration being the absolute minimum reserve even in a high flow cave). In a syphon, in tight/silty passage, the presence of tight restrictions, in low/no-flow cave one obviously has to reserve even more gas for the exit as the situation dictates.

    2. Continuous guideline line to open water; we've discussed this.

    3. Three lights; again obvious (but more up to a common sense limit is better, especially since backup lights are now so small, one can easily stuff a couple of extras in one's pockets).

    4. Appropriate gas for depth; that's obvious. (And dare I say it, it seems to me than a maximum operating pO2 of 1.2 for the working portion of the dive, as suggested by the GUE standards, seems reasonable to me; and for the record I'm not GUE trained).

    5. Don't go beyond one's training; again obvious. (And very importantly note that training is a continuous process that goes well beyond cave class; in other words progress slowly and don't be in a hurry; it's the voyage that counts, not the destination).

    I would add one more rule/guideline: don't venture in places that are beyond one's technical abilities, even if they are within one's comfort zone. e.g. if one can't go through the Parallel lines, for example, without kicking up the silt, then practice somewhere less tight, low and silty until one can do so. (For sure it makes for a much more pleasant dive to have good visibility on the exit as well as on the swim in).

    One last thing, in the light of Kelly's very pertinent last post. While I haven't practiced medicine for a long time (since I now do biomedical research), I can confirm that in emergency medical situations, particularly late at night after working non-stop for 30+ hours, as many residents do, one absolutely wants to be able to make decisions and carry out procedures on auto-pilot. Since these often involve life or death situations one sure can't afford to make mistakes. This applies of course not just to CPR but to any number of other medical emergencies. Exactly the same is true for unforseen events/emergencies in cave diving.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Marius


    -------------
    Marius Clore
    NACD Equipment and Technology Chair

    (Disclaimer the above views are my views and mine alone, and have nothing to do with the NACD).


  5. #115
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    Default thanks,

    marius, thank you. I am humbled and grateful for your post.

    -skip

    "Learning the techniques of others does not interfere with the discovery of techniques of one's own." B.F. Skinner, 1970.

  6. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by quarrydiver View Post
    I don't usually post on forums,
    Thank you for your excellent and well thought out post. You should consider posting more often - it could save lives.


  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    rules, guidelines, recommendations...the thing is what the words produce in terms of future behavior.
    Given the following two options, I believe producing a cave diver who believes the "rules" are not to be broken for fear of certain death is better then producing a cave diver who believes "recommendations" are mere suggestions with little bearing on the outcome of a dive.

    Not picking on you Skip, but your posts in this thread have really thrown me for a loop.


  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by quarrydiver View Post
    I don't usually post on forums, but having read this thread and the related thread on Bruce's accident, as well as having had an interchange with Skip, I thought I would just add some comments and my own views to the mix.

    These discussions on violating the 5 golden rules/guidelines of cave diving, particularly in light of the recent accident, seem to me to be a little dangerous. This is particularly so since a number of posters (including Andrew who should know better, no offense intended) seem to me to be in denial over what happened largely because they are constantly violating some rather minimal, common sense rules/guidelines, especially the one relating to having a continuous line to open water.

    The 5 rules/guidelines, represent a minimum. They also represent common sense. Change in terms of increased conservatism is fine, but the reverse is not fine and is simply asking for trouble as accident analysis has clearly shown empirically, time and time again (even if the analysis lacks statistical rigor). Indeed, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of deaths of trained cave divers (with the exception of Parker Turner's) have involved violations of one of the 5 rules/guidelines of cave diving, and they have invariably been due to either complacency or going beyond one's training and abilities (i.e. too far too soon).

    In the case of Ginnie, there is no doubt that many people get away with not placing jumps. As Andrew pointed out you don't need to lay a line to drive to your local neighborhood store to pick up milk. But let's see how good he is at finding his local store or getting back home from it if the visibility was suddenly reduced to 1 ft (not incidentally impossible for anybody who has experienced a London fog/smog before they banned coal and wood fires). Let's see how good he would be if he had a mild heart attack or stroke, or a case of vertigo. In a high flow system such as Ginnie, a total silt out in many places can usually just be waited out for a few minutes, but not always, and certainly not everywhere (including Harry's crack, the Double lines, Sherwood splits, etc...). You never know what's going to happen, and it is those freak incidents that the golden cave rules/guidelines are meant to protect against, no matter how experienced a cave diver one may be.

    Lets take a couple of really simple examples. I've noticed that many people don't feel the need to place a jump from the Gold line to the Hill 400, and I have had many discussions where such people have said that they can easily get from the Hill 400 to the Gold line in a total silt out/lights out situation. However, why would one want to subject oneself to additional stress to find the gold line effectively blind, when it would be trivial to just follow the jump line and not have to worry about it. The same is true for laying a primary line in the Ear or Eye. Again I've heard many people say that even in a total lights out situation they could find their way out from the start of the Gold Line to open water. But I'm not so sure in a real situation that they would fare that well, particularly if there were other factors coming into play as well (such as a limited gas supply, some medical problem, etc...). Let's say it's at night and the Ginnie flood light is off. Your lights have failed (including backup lights) or there is a total freak siltout or something's happened to your ears and you've suddenly got vertigo. In a training setting sure one could find one's way out the Ear (with a little luck and some time, and providing one doesn't get turned around), but when the real deal hits totally unexpectedly the stress level is going to be quite a lot higher. But if one has a primary line in, its a piece of cake to just OK it and follow it to open water with no (or minimal) stress at all.

    So this is what I think happened with Bruce (purely speculative of course), and why I believe that placing jumps is so critical with absolutely NO exceptions. The divers decide they are going to do Harry's crack and they scope the exit (on the Expressway side) and the entrance on the Gold Line side, without laying any jump reels. Bruce goes into Harry's crack without laying a jump line and creates a massive silt cloud (either by accident, or because it's impossible not to from that side, or because his skill levels are not up to the task, even though he probably had over a thousand dives in the Devil's system). His buddy, quite rightly doesn't feel comfortable following since there is no way he can even see the start of the line in Harry's crack from the main passage. Bruce doesn't stop when he goes in but continues swimming, oblivious that his buddy isn't behind him. Had Bruce laid a line, and then waited until his buddy came (following standard protocol) or not as the case may be, there wouldn't have been an issue. Moreover, with a line in place, his buddy could have put his head in and flashed Bruce down. At some stage Bruce realizes that his buddy is not behind him and has an "Oh ****" moment. This may have been while Bruce was still in Harry's crack or had exited on the Expressway side (we'll never know). But either way, since the plan was to go into Harry's crack, Bruce is under the assumption that his buddy did follow and that he's stuck somewhere. Obviously a bad situation. So Bruce goes back in to look for his buddy. At this point, the whole of Harry's crack is silted out and Bruce is going blind, anxiety is increasing, etc...., progress is slow. (i.e. this isn't a question of being in a silt out for a minute or so but for a prolonged period of time in tight, silty passage). He manages to exit on the Gold line side, but there is a complete silt out at the exit, and he cannot see (he may not even realize he's out of Harry's crack and has no line to follow), he goes under the gold line, manages to get hold of the Hill 400 line, and for whatever reason continues up the Hill 400 line. At this point he probably doesn't even know whether he's on the Hill 400 side, or the Expressway side, his vision and thinking have tunneled, and he probably doesn't even look at his pressure gauge until it's too late. He's found 400 ft up the Hill 400. Assuming a swim rate of 50 ft per minute, that's 8 minutes, which would have been more than sufficient to get to the log in the Ear and onto his O2 bottle, albeit somewhat tight. As for the hypothesis that he went looking for his buddy in the Wormhole, there too, had they followed the continuous guideline rule, his buddy would have laid a jump line; if this wasn't there, then Bruce would immediately have known that his buddy wasn't in the wormhole. So from whatever angle you look at this, everything boils down to not running lines at all jumps. The other factor, of course, is that ultimately Bruce clearly didn't leave himself enough gas reserves (ipso facto since his tanks were found empty). Of course, he might have also suffered some medical event that would have impaired him either mentally or physically for a period of time, or some partial equipment failure (such as a free flowing reg) that would have slowed him down; but then again, not having a continuous line sure didn't help.

    So why is laying lines at jumps so important in my view. (a) It provides a continuous guideline to open water so that if the **** hits the fan (silt out, mild panic attack, mild heartache, vertigo, etc....) one can just go back to muscle memory and follow the line without thinking. (b) It provides time to make and think about transitions (something Larry Green wrote about some time ago in the NACD journal); i.e. you install a line across the jump, you wait until your buddy comes over, you signal each other OK and then go on; without placing a jump, the tendency is just to go. (c) It avoids complacency (and if one is complacent about putting in jumps, then it isn't a stretch that one might become complacent or take short cuts with regard to other issues). (d) Placing jumps with spools/reels with one's name on it, allows others to come looking for you should the worst happen. With no jumps in place, how is anybody going to find you in a system as large and complex as Devil's. (e) Placing reels, jumps, etc... maintains muscle memory so that when one actually needs to use a reel in an emergency situation one doesn't fumble. And believe me, if one doesn't practice, skills rapidly go. I recently dove with somebody, who shall be nameless, who rarely placed a jump reel/spool in Devil's. No big deal for me as I always place them and enjoy doing so (I will never do any visual jumps and I always run a line to open water, including in the Ear carrying several stages and towing a scooter). But on one dive I told him that he should place one and indicated which one; guess what, he fumbled, took a really long time (because with a scooter in hand he'd probably never placed a jump) and then misplaced the snap clip pointing into the cave rather than towards the exit (i.e. back on the jump line as it should have been). Clearly he was out of practice which suggests that in an emergency situation such as a real lost line situation in a complete silt out or lights out, he might have some difficulty.

    So lets look at the 5 rules/guidelines (in no particular order):

    1. Dive to 1/3rds at maximum penetration; now that's pretty liberal and represent the bare minimum of conservatism. Clearly one has to reserve at least twice as much gas as one needs to exit (with 2/3 of one's starting gas at the point of maximum penetration being the absolute minimum reserve even in a high flow cave). In a syphon, in tight/silty passage, the presence of tight restrictions, in low/no-flow cave one obviously has to reserve even more gas for the exit as the situation dictates.

    2. Continuous guideline line to open water; we've discussed this.

    3. Three lights; again obvious (but more up to a common sense limit is better, especially since backup lights are now so small, one can easily stuff a couple of extras in one's pockets).

    4. Appropriate gas for depth; that's obvious. (And dare I say it, it seems to me than a maximum operating pO2 of 1.2 for the working portion of the dive, as suggested by the GUE standards, seems reasonable to me; and for the record I'm not GUE trained).

    5. Don't go beyond one's training; again obvious. (And very importantly note that training is a continuous process that goes well beyond cave class; in other words progress slowly and don't be in a hurry; it's the voyage that counts, not the destination).

    I would add one more rule/guideline: don't venture in places that are beyond one's technical abilities, even if they are within one's comfort zone. e.g. if one can't go through the Parallel lines, for example, without kicking up the silt, then practice somewhere less tight, low and silty until one can do so. (For sure it makes for a much more pleasant dive to have good visibility on the exit as well as on the swim in).

    One last thing, in the light of Kelly's very pertinent last post. While I haven't practiced medicine for a long time (since I now do biomedical research), I can confirm that in emergency medical situations, particularly late at night after working non-stop for 30+ hours, as many residents do, one absolutely wants to be able to make decisions and carry out procedures on auto-pilot. Since these often involve life or death situations one sure can't afford to make mistakes. This applies of course not just to CPR but to any number of other medical emergencies. Exactly the same is true for unforseen events/emergencies in cave diving.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Marius


    -------------
    Marius Clore
    NACD Equipment and Technology Chair

    (Disclaimer the above views are my views and mine alone, and have nothing to do with the NACD).
    Thank you


  9. #119
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    Default Rules

    I would add one more reason for always running a jump line. The jump line not only leads you to the previous line, it leads you to an arrow that tells you how you intended to get out. Absent the jump line, it may be some time before you find a line arrow.

    "I like to do dangerous things safely."

  10. #120
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    Marius,

    First, thanks for a very eloquent, well worded post.

    i agree with the vast majority of your points. I just want to highlight a few small caveats:

    1) Dive to thirds. I actually think that this is a good rule - with three riders.

    First, I would like divers to be told categorically that this does not work in sumps. I think this is done already, so no biggie there.

    Secondly, I would like to see a FORMAL reccommendation to divers on the ADDED margin needed in a no- or low-flow cave. Here's an easy one - drop your usable thirds by 100 psi. So let's say you have 3400. You round to 3300 - that gives you 1100 usable. Now, DROP THIS BY ANOTHER 100 in no flow to 1000. That means your turn is at 3400-1000 = 2400. Many have argued that the problem with some of my suggestions has been that they're too complex or too vague. This one is dead easy to write into the standards.

    Third, see my causality caveat below.

    2) Continuous guideline to the surface. This is actually a good rule (I contested it largely because it amused me how few others did, when I know that the vast majority of divers blow it off at the entrance to many popular caves and on jumps like the Hill 400). However the caveat here is - don't jump to laying blame on this as causal in an accident unless there is clear evidence that this is true. It causes us to ignore the real reasons for an accident. Skip described this very well earlier when talking about determining causality as being important in accident analysis. Right now everyone simply looks at which rules were broken and immediately assumes causality. This leads to complacency and poor learning. i'm afraid that your labyrinthine "scenario analysis" of Bruce's accident is an example of this - there is just no way that your complex series of guesses is lucky enough to be correct, and there is absolutely no way that any probability weighted analysis would lead a scientist to state categorically that the accident was undeniably caused by not having a line. maybe it would have helped... maybe it wouldn't... but it's intellecutally lazy to state that this accident was caused by not laying a line. We need either to look harder, or agree that the evidence is inconclusive. Anything else is the triumph of dogma over science.

    3) 3 lights - Damn right! In fact I'd like to see 4 lights as a standard with the 4th available to signal cave exit in a lost buddy scenario, as currently informally taught by many instructors.

    4) Appropriate gas - Damn right!

    5) Diving beyond training - Well... once more be careful to create inappropriate causal links here. Inovation, by definition, is the act of going beyond one's training. Should an innovator like... oh hell, I don't want to tempt fate by giving examples but I've mentioned a few elsewhere - ever pass away, heaven forbid, please let's not attribute that innovation as causal in their death unless there is clear evidence that this is true.

    A final point - none of this obviates the need for us all to discuss this stuff really carefully, and to continue to innovate and improve. I'd be ecstatic of all my discussions about gas management led to one thing, and one thing only - a formal, simple rule about how to increase reserves for no flow caves.

    Last edited by aainslie; 09-15-2009 at 08:14 PM.
    Andrew Ainslie

    Almost extinct cave diver


 

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