Scared at Peacock

[Jim Wyatt]

isnt p1 closed to open water divers?

Yes.

[Benthic]

I guarantee you we'll lose Eagles Nest as a site. It is always easier to police a site by closing it,and nobody can seem to bring this under control.

Well we spoke quietly with the Instructor and pointed out that what he was doing was both outside of standards and unsafe. He didn't seem to be too worried about it, so we spoke to his students and told them that no agency on the planet would condone what their instructor was about to do and explained why it was unsafe. They didn't seem to worried about it either.

So we snapped a few photos of what was going on and then reported the entire incident to every agency we could think of, including the one the Instructor taught for. Our info was actually pretty well received by the agency, although I don't really know what ultimately came of it.

The point would be that if we are truly going to be a self-policing industry, then it is the responsibility of all cave divers to be on the lookout for, and report such things. You may get labeled as 'a jerk' or 'an elitist' or worse. But if we're truly going to remain self-policing and expect to have sites like Eagle's Nest remain open to us then, in my opinion, we cannot afford to just look the other way.

Brian

[Kelly Jessop]

The point would be that if we are truly going to be a self-policing industry, then it is the responsibility of all cave divers to be on the lookout for, and report such things. You may get labeled as 'a jerk' or 'an elitist' or worse. But if we're truly going to remain self-policing and expect to have sites like Eagle's Nest remain open to us then, in my opinion, we cannot afford to just look the other way.

Brian

Brian you are correct. The sites we have access to are a privledge,not a right. For many,managing sites for cave diving is bothersome,and would rather see the sport disappear. Unfortunately Eagles Nest,and Little River are places that have no supervision,so violation of the rules is commonplace. It is easy to turn our head and ignore it,and not be the jerk,but don't scream your head off when the site is gone.

[tj]

Whew, I come home after a great 3 day weekend in cave country and I'm getting slammed on my own forum...

Funny how things look from other's perspectives... Saturday morning, my associate, Peter, was teaching a cavern class of two, my wife an intro class of three, and I, one cavern student. This was Saturday morning. The rest of our 'mob', from Orlando, California, North Carolina, Alabama and Germany were friends and past students there to dive and enjoy themselves. Most, on Saturday, were off doing their own thing.

Tfaris overhead a conversation of the team of three (Sean, Intro with H valve, his dad Mike and Adrian, both apprentice divers) talking about the 800' and 900' line marker on the main line to Olsen.... Well, there is none.. Adrian was confused about it... and we were explaining the mid-point markers, etc. I think he saw the '600' ... upside down.... who knows... I figured they turned their dive at one of the 600' markers...

Sorry we showed up with a crowd at Peacock... We were, at least 18 in number (2 were not diving)...

Below are most of them, next day at Little River...


I don't post too often on the main forums... but while I'm at it...

Friday morning at Morgans was great. Basin not so clear, but cave was perfect!



Saturday afternoon, Denise and I traded classes and I did lots of skills with the Intro boys while she followed the cavern student (Nicole) running line in the cavern.

Sunday morning, at Little River, Peter worked with the 3 cavern students, Denise the intro students, and I dived with the apprentice divers, and one full cave diver, twice... Oh, and the single tank cavern and sidemount Intro divers ALL passed!

Later on Sunday afternoon, after most divers were headed home, Denise swam with Adrian, one of the apprentice diver, out to the Nickolson tunnel and back (conditions not so good), then down the Well line. Chris, a full cave diver, and I ran a line from P1 cavern down to the Well line, then went to the end of the Well line, looked around all the jumps down there, back out to the main line beyond the sign, over to Pothole, crossed over to the Breakdown room on the Peanut line, via the Sidemount tunnel there, then back to P1 cavern, down to the Well jump to pull the line we left there. Great dive, 85 mins no deco.. and barely past thirds when done and on safety stop.

Great weekend...

[CaveBuddy95]

Well we spoke quietly with the Instructor and pointed out that what he was doing was both outside of standards and unsafe. He didn't seem to be too worried about it, so we spoke to his students and told them that no agency on the planet would condone what their instructor was about to do and explained why it was unsafe. They didn't seem to worried about it either.

So we snapped a few photos of what was going on and then reported the entire incident to every agency we could think of, including the one the Instructor taught for. Our info was actually pretty well received by the agency, although I don't really know what ultimately came of it.

The point would be that if we are truly going to be a self-policing industry, then it is the responsibility of all cave divers to be on the lookout for, and report such things. You may get labeled as 'a jerk' or 'an elitist' or worse. But if we're truly going to remain self-policing and expect to have sites like Eagle's Nest remain open to us then, in my opinion, we cannot afford to just look the other way.

Brian

I say it again, bravo!
It takes some courage to do what you did and I fully support you. (for what my support is worth..!!)
As an exemple of the Quality Assurance program PADI has, last november, Steve Mortel from HQ came to Playa for a short seminar about Risk Management. It was short but great. He emphasised on the fact that when a Pro sees another Pro doing something that could endanger the life of the clients/divers he is with, one should not hesitate and make a full and detailed report of the incident. It is a fine line between a QA and setting up personnal vendetta but if done correctly, it helps the industry.
I know, PADI does not have Cave training, but there is Cavern specialty. I mean that its not all bad at PADI..!!
So again, well done and keep us informed when you hear of more about this.


Cheers

[CaveBuddy95]

I say it again, bravo!
It takes some courage to do what you did and I fully support you. (for what my support is worth..!!)
As an exemple of the Quality Assurance program PADI has, last november, Steve Mortel from HQ came to Playa for a short seminar about Risk Management. It was short but great. He emphasised on the fact that when a Pro sees another Pro doing something that could endanger the life of the clients/divers he is with, one should not hesitate and make a full and detailed report of the incident. It is a fine line between a QA and setting up personnal vendetta but if done correctly, it helps the industry.
I know, PADI does not have Cave training, but there is Cavern specialty. I mean that its not all bad at PADI..!!
So again, well done and keep us informed when you hear of more about this.


Cheers

OOoooooopppsssssssssssss........!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe we spoke too fast!!

Ok, this was Intox not Info but the point is still valid. If you see something done wrong and dangerous report but be sure of your facts..!!



Cheers

ps: nice pics TJ .. :-(

[netmage]

Brian you are correct. The sites we have access to are a privledge,not a right. For many,managing sites for cave diving is bothersome,and would rather see the sport disappear. Unfortunately Eagles Nest,and Little River are places that have no supervision,so violation of the rules is commonplace. It is easy to turn our head and ignore it,and not be the jerk,but don't scream your head off when the site is gone.

The point would be that if we are truly going to be a self-policing industry, then it is the responsibility of all cave divers to be on the lookout for, and report such things. You may get labeled as 'a jerk' or 'an elitist' or worse. But if we're truly going to remain self-policing and expect to have sites like Eagle's Nest remain open to us then, in my opinion, we cannot afford to just look the other way.

Brian, you elitist jerk.....

Keep it up... <g>

-Tim

[stairman]

Another story with a happy ending.

[Benthic]

Brian, you elitist jerk.....

Keep it up... <g>

-Tim

Guilty as charged...

Brian

[FW]

Well we spoke quietly with the Instructor and pointed out that what he was doing was both outside of standards and unsafe. He didn't seem to be too worried about it, so we spoke to his students and told them that no agency on the planet would condone what their instructor was about to do and explained why it was unsafe. They didn't seem to worried about it either.

So we snapped a few photos of what was going on and then reported the entire incident to every agency we could think of, including the one the Instructor taught for. Our info was actually pretty well received by the agency, although I don't really know what ultimately came of it.

The point would be that if we are truly going to be a self-policing industry, then it is the responsibility of all cave divers to be on the lookout for, and report such things. You may get labeled as 'a jerk' or 'an elitist' or worse. But if we're truly going to remain self-policing and expect to have sites like Eagle's Nest remain open to us then, in my opinion, we cannot afford to just look the other way.

Brian

Let's not confuse these totally separate events. This thread was about Peacock, but Brian is talking about Eagle's Nest.

I fully support what Brian did, after hearing from several people about what was going on at EN that day.

FWIW, I did the same thing over 30 years ago. Open water instructors were regularly checking out students *inside* all of today's popular caves. My own OW instructor had lost two students in Little River. I was amazed that he didn't even loose his instructor's card. He was hailed as a hero, because he saved two of four out of the class.

I got letters back from the training directors of the major agencies, thanking me for pointing out that this was going on. They had no idea that checkout dives were being conducted in overhead environments. They sent out a letter to all their instructors, pointing out that NO OW training was to be done in any overhead environment.

Within a year, the fatality rate in north Florida dropped from dozens a year to a very few.