Safety Bottle Caching At JB

[OutlawCaver]

I would like some opinions to start a dialogue on having several safety bottle air caches at JB. I am well aware of all the pros and cons of having such caches but please feel free to take your stand for others to read. We have several caches at Indian Springs both upstream and downstream and I must admit it is a nice feeling knowing those bottles are there if needed. I realize that seeing saftey bottles during your dive may spoil the scenary for you but let's at least discuss it here. My 1st thoughts are a single bottle at any or all of the following places: the 1st T, 3rd T, Elbow, Source Nouveau jump. These are all places to easily secure the bottle, easy to see and easy area to don.

Thanks in advance for your contribution.

Vince

[aainslie]

Well, if you DO establish a cache, I hope I'm not expected to pay for it, directly or indirectly. Because there's no way I'm going to plan my dives based on the assumption that someone else did/didn't set up the cylinder properly. And given that I think it's a bad idea, I'd hate to be taxed somewhere for something I don't want.

I pay enough educating my neighbors' kids as it is.

[OutlawCaver]

I have a bottle and a regulator to contribute. I am sure there are others that could help out if there is interest. No one has to worry about being asked to contribute monies in any way.

Vince

[EEL]

Vince,

I do understand the nice feeling of having the extra gas there, and it really makes sense for rebreather bailout. Hauling full cylinders in and out of the cave you dive frequently makes no sence. I do not think the Source Nouveau T is a good spot. There is already alot of tore up clay behind the rock where stages and scooters get dropped. Finding a good place to leave a bottle after the Elbow is going to be tough. I would never plan my dive relying on the cached cylinders, but seeing them will provide a margine of comfort.

Let me know what you decide,

Mark

[Benthic]

I think it's a bad idea in general. For lots of reasons. Here are a few, in no particular order:

First of all, we're all big boys and girls who know (or are supposed to know) how to plan for our gas needs appropriately. This is a basic cave diving skill. Anyone who isn't comfortable doing such things has no business cave diving to begin with, and should never have made it out of class.

Second, who's going to supply and maintain these proposed bottles and regulators? Will they be standardized in any way? Should they be? What will they be filled with? How often are they going to be checked, and by who? Who is going to swap them out if they get low or somehow damaged.

Third, who's fault is it going to be when someone needs one of those bottles and it's not full, or doesn't function properly and the person who needed that gas winds up dead? We all know that in the wake of a fatality the odds of 'blame-storming' are high.

Fourth, in the event that someone uses one of those bottles it will be at least partially depleted and probably relocated. It may be removed from the cave. Who's going to have to refill it and replace it? What does the person in question do with this bottle that they have now removed from the system? What if it's late at night? What if it's the last dive before they head home to some place hundreds of miles away?

Fifth, do we really want to put forward the idea that there's gas in the cave for 'public' consumption. How long before people start grabbing the wrong bottles?

Sixth, where are all the 'cave trash' people and why aren't they jumping up and down on this one? This will have far more impact on the cave than plastic bats, frogs and other tiny toys that get hung on the line.

Personally I abhor what I call the 'nanny mentality' of trying to convince people at large that they are incapable of looking out for themselves. We all know the risks associated with cave diving and we each evaluate and deal with them as we see fit. Anyone who needs the illusion of safety that these bottles would provide is very likely diving beyond where they should be anyway. There have been more than a few discussions about people who dive beyond their limits, or people who stop training at the Intro level but dive at the Full Cave or Cave Diver level. The last thing we want to do is encourage that.

I think that the 'safety' concept works at Indian because access to the cave is very tightly controlled. Thus it's much easier to keep an eye on safety bottles and their status. However, I certainly don't think that the highly restrictive system of guides, waivers and safety bottles that is in place at Indian should be a model for other cave systems. In fact I think that the Indian model should be railed against and abolished wherever it appears...but that's a whole different conversation.

Brian

[SLIM]

I have to be with Ansile on this one. The only time I think safties should be used is in exploration.

It gives to many a flase sence of secruity and they shoudl not plan a dive tha twould be close to needing them. If they have gone in so far and do not have the reserve that is trained and has been pointed out as a rule that shoudl never be broken.

For the RB divers, if they cant handle carring full tanks in and out as they should for their bailout. I know that differant RB divers are taught differnat ways to carry bail out but I always want all my gas with me.

I do understand that Indian still has the sand hill that could casue a problem, JB? I don't see anything in there that would warrent it.

The more stuff we have toput in there to save thoses that are to be trained to give them a crutch wil only hurt them in not planning a dive properly and safely. I have seen so many that once after full cave class are pushing the limits and still have 100 or less dives. This is just another way to give a diver the chance to wnat to go further and push the gas rule past what they should. Yes with flow up it does mean you have to use more gas to get in and that the flow will help push you out. Is this how you plan your gas usage?

As the others have stated, who is responsible for it all?

I know that I would never plan on it even if it was in there. An emergency, well nope because I would have planned accordingly to have all the gas I need to get out on my own, and then there is a buddy with me. If no buddy, then plan the gas for that.

Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

SLIM

[Line Squirrel]

I pay enough educating my neighbors' kids as it is.

Amen brother

And ditto to what Andrew, Benthic (Brian) and SLIM all said.

[OutlawCaver]

This is great. Just the kind of dialogue I was hoping for.

[EEL]

Vince,

I think you may have poked a bee hive here; lets keep the safties out of the cave......

cheers,

Mark

[OutlawCaver]

I have no intention of placing any safety gases for anyone other than myself and those on any given dive with me. I did however want to at least start a discussion.