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I'm curious. It's anonymous, so please answer truthfully. I suspect WAY more people have gotten bent than like to admit to.
...Which would make that speaker on the other thread rather ho hum...
If you've been bent several times please just indicate the most serious event.
Need more options...
Yes; both 1 AND 2
Yes; 1, but treated it myself.
No; but I plan to
what about a maybe answer? aka some symptoms, but not 100% and didn't go to the doc. :/
I had a suspected and did 2 treatments totalling 8 hours. Turns out I pulled my shoulder getting into the boat. Didn't have a ladder at the time so we had to climb up the leg and over the stern. That'll learn me.
I'm trying to keep it simple. Freddy, as I say, report worst case. Self treatment is the same as non treatment IMHO - at least that's how I intended it. I'd treat "some symptoms but did nothing" as option 1, Ant. newman, I suppose I'd call yours a "no". Oh - and I'm assuming that no one who has a serious hit is dumb enough to sit at home hoping it disappears...
I had a type 2 hit (vertigo, nausea, abd / back pain, blurred vision) August of 2008. It was an undeserved / unearned hit...I found out the hard way that I had a PFO. I had the PFO closed in November,and have since started diving again end of February.
Interesting. So far, HALF the respondents have had some sort of incident. And I didn't even impose a limit on minimum nomber of cave dives.
Seems like "bent cave diver" is almost tautological.
I was going to post on the other thread, but decided not to 'cause I would have said that IMHO if you do this long enough you WILL get bent and it's just a matter of time......
Safe diving,
Rich
Sure, diving tables or "ratio" deco. Do yourself a favor and get a computer. :yawinkle:
Human error's a *****.
Actually the one time I did take a hit was the only time I dove mix on a computer. Luckily only a very mild hit. People looked at me funny driving down I10 with my O2 reg in my mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Martin.
My first hit was in open water after hanging onto an anchor line for 45 minutes in moderate seas. I don't remember switching arms. I had pain in my right elbow. Took some O2 on board the boat, skip the second dive and the pain resolved. However, since then I get niggles there.
On two occasions, I have had very sharp pain in both my elbows when doffing my CCR in the water after long 290ft cave dives. The pain goes away instantaneously or very quickly. Not sure if that is a bend or not. I have since found a way to remove my CCR in a more graceful way to avoid those pains.
I also had an occasion that I had some swelling in my chest muscles and some discoloration/molting after free diving the day after a deep dive. My dive buddies convinced me to go to the chamber because they thought I was bent. The diving doc told me it was sun burn and sent me home. There are many jokes about that now.
Hans
Wow- I thought I was posting in this thread, but was in the other thread. Here is my rather in depth description of my bends, some friends bends, and some opinions. (Long.)
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showp...6&postcount=15
Jason
And again we are hammering Ratio Deco... The only time I took a good hit was with a tx computer and no - it was not deserved and no - I don't have a PFO.
Ever since I dive RD I had no such problems but I always find it interesting that people try to attack RD but in most cases truly have no clue about it. This includes some very prominent members of this country's diving elite. However, when challenged, they often and quickly admit that they may have misspoken and really don't know much about it. I don't know if Sluedge falls into this category but I suspect he does. Anyone that has somewhat solid knowledge of Ratio Deco would never make a statement like this. Furthermore, the lack of knowledge is evidenced by the fact that the earlier poster implies that RD is a radical decompression theory and not an application of widely accepted decompression methodologies as they can be found in your tx dive computer or in any commercially available dive planning software.
I find it sad that ignorant statements like that still find a public outlet. Divers that use the RD approach are not posting that everybody else who is not diving their way is "on the express way to hell" (true quote before retracting it).
I really would hate to see Andrew's post getting derailed by this. I will not engage in a s...-throwing match but if you want to you can pm me.
I think you could just have discounted his post as "hey, he probably doesn't do dives that require that level of decompression planning, and is happy doing what he does, so...skip to next post" rather than taking it personally as an affront to the method of deco that you choose to advocate. Nobody else took it personally, and those that are interested will find the details on "ratio deco" rather than discounting it due Sludge's opinions. ;)
...skip to next post...
I've read extensively on Ratio Deco and there's nothing wrong with the math behind it. Where I find a problem is it's up to the diver to decide on the fly how deep he was for how long. That's where human error can appear.
I listed mine as a mild type one....
Did a cold water dive to 365ffw and on deco had a reg malfunction so needed to switch it out to another reg. Later while engaging in full contact deco I ripped the thumb off my glove and my hand flooded and water seeped into my suit up to the shoulder. After the dive my shoulder was itchy and a buddy said the skin was blotchy.
Did nothing for it --actually forgot about it since the itch didn't last long, and the following day did the same dive again with no side effects.
So not sure it really even was a hit, but I'll call it one to be conservative.
Russell, I suspect that RD or tables aren't the culprit. Certainly I had one of mine using an X1 on +4 and a Vision on 15/85, very conservative settings. Didn't surface early. Go figure. Another was when I was hurrying in Cow - I usually hang out at about 40-50 in the vertical bit for a few minutes but I had someone waiting for me on the surface and my computer was clear to 20 ft so through i went... and got a skin bend immediately on surfacing.
I guess I didn't say what I meant. I don't think either ratio deco or tables are the culprit, either. Human error is the culprit.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
This section bewilders me. I don't think I could ever trust myself to do this, and I'm a math guy. Not when it's MY health on the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.5thd-x.com
Yeah, Iv'e always thought that any procedure based on doing arithmetic while underwater is a little... err... hokey.
But that's a whole different story. I'm amazed at how this poll is going - 1/2 of us roughly have had hits! More than 5% have had serious incidents! That's incredible.
It just shows what the Navy has been saying for years, the tables (algorithms, etc.) are based on averages. There is no guarantee that you won't get bent, even if you follow the tables, computer, underwater math, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Ok Andrew, just to be certain, you are asking how many times I have BEEN bent, NOT how many time I have been TOLD to go get bent. Right?
Yup, and we're not talking bent (as in warped (as in your humour)).Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
A very interesting poll. It would also be good to add how many career dives did the diver have, so we can estimate the frequency of getting bent.
The issue of getting bent has always bugged me. A common story is, dive technical long enough, get bent.
I can say that is not necessarily true. I have over 1300 dives, over 500 are technical decompression dives with maximum run times 3-4 hours long, and so far, clean. About 2 years ago, also started doing doppler on myself after most dives. Zero bubble grade using VPM-B or GF. My buddy is the same way too and we dive similar tables.
It would seem my number is coming up, but I would think a modern technical diver pays greater heed to risk factors for bends and actively seeks to avoid them all.
Should there be a catagory for "mild" type II ?
Well, how finely can you skin a cat?Quote:
Originally Posted by dogwatch
Like I said, I wanted to keep it simple. Neuro/AGE/lung bends just aren't ever "mild" IMHO. And I'm MOST interested in the fact that 45% of people responding have had SOME incident. That's huge.
Yup. Doesn't seem to match up with DAN or PADI numbers. Of course, this is a very small sample, and many OW divers probably don't consider being bent unless the pain is dramatic.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
"Incident" is very subjective, unless it is a somewhat serious hit. I may have some bruising and muscle aches, but figure they're just souveniers from gear handling, etc. My buddy (in the general sense, no one specific) may get the same bruising and call it skin bends, or get some muscle aches and call it a "minor hit."
I took a mild hit a year or two ago while diving OC here in Jersey, surfaced from the dive and felt the pain right away. The capt. of the boat, who is also a good friend of mine made me go on O2 and made me eat some asprin, at it's worst, I couldn't move my left arm and the pain was unbearable. After about two hours on O2, I was pain free.
While I was driving home, pain came back big time, went to the hospt. I work for, they transfered me to Jacoby in NYC, took a chamber ride there, problem solved. No lingering problems and I'm still diving, so thats good. My insurance picked up half the bill, DAN got the rest. In total it cost just under 30k USD. Two ER visits, Critical Care Ambulance ride, and the chamber.
Turns out my computer(vr3) pooped the bed, and I didn't have a BT with me so I was unsure how long I was down. After talking with the capt. we estimated I was down for a little over an hour at 80fsw, and made a direct assent to the surface. Not a good scene howeve you won't catch me without a backup timer anymore......I was not really thinking anything could go wrong on an 80ft wreck I had been on hundreds of times.
Paule
Having been on the wreck hundreds of times, it didn't strike you as odd that you were making a direct ascent when normally you would have had to make a stop or two?
What sort of failure did you have on the VR3? Was it giving you erroneous information that you unknowingly followed, or did it bail on you and leave you to figure out a plan? If it's the first one, that's pretty scary!
One interesting point - the percentage for no hits has been slowly trending upwards. Since the frequency with which you look at the board will be highly correlated with your inter-visit period (well, perfectly actually), which in turn are correlated with any given inter-visit period, one might infer from this that the more often you look at this board, the more likely you are to have been bent!
I've had two minor hits (skin bends with a little vertigo) and didn't seek treament. Both were at Ginnie with bottom times under 2 hours. So far I've been lucky and haven't had any issues diving mix in the ocean.
Bruce
LOL You may be right about this. Prior to me joining this board (2007), I've never had a hit. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Last year, I took a mild hit to my left hand a day after I doing a wreck dive on the Jodrey. The cause may have been lack of circulation due to sleeping on it all night (really!).
Scott
this is because the more you visit the board the less you are diving and the more you are learning how to dive online, hence not gaining real experience and training. But everthing I learned was from CDF, RBW & TDS, and Im still clean. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
'He is reaching your honor!'Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by MengTze
Never been bent, been diving quite a long time and I dive tables, now with a Nitek HE as backup. My tables are more conservative by design using decoplanner with 20-80 gradient factors (although I am thinking of going with more of an exponential curve gradient profile - but that is for another thread). From observation and back calculation, the HE is roughly equivalent to 80-80 gradient factor decoplanner. It usually clears within +/- a couple minutes of when my tables say time is up...meaning it took my deeper table stops into consideration and when I hit 20, it was roughly in sync...seen this time and time again, deep, medium and shallower dives, so not sure what you are saying is true unless you tend to cut tables very agressively and hang the computer on a line to clear...BTW, If the HE had more deco than the tables, I would go more conservative and wait out the computer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I prefer to be more conservative especially due to being an old fart...like Andrew
Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Actually it was erroneous information, it neglected to count about 28 min of the dive. So in reality I thought I was down for about 30 min or so when in reallity it was closer to an hour. My fault for not paying attention to how long I was down.
Paule
That's pretty scary. Any idea what caused the malfunction? Has it recurred?Quote:
Originally Posted by drtyjrzy
I had some minor niggles that resolved themselves quickly without treatment, but never really considered myself "bent". Never happened in a cave, just in deep OW.
According to Delta P the depth sensor went bad, I didn;t turn it on prior to jumping in and it didn't kick in for like 30 min. I normally wouldn't check the computer on a wreck like this because I know how deep I am. Anyway I still have the computer as a backup(witha new sensor) and I dive a Shearwater connected to my Inspo. as a main.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
It's a good heads-up to us all to check all gadgets after entering the water. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by drtyjrzy
Those VR3's do weird things. Mine reset TWICE while on deco a few years ago, on different dives. Luckily I always wore 2. One minute you have an hour of deco ahead of you, the next you're clean and ready to exit... pretty disconcerting...
Agreed, very disconcerting. Any explanation from Delta-P? By 2, do you mean 2 VR3's? Only one of them do the reset thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Yep, I had 2 of them and only 1 would keep resetting. delta P thought it was probably a bad connection to the battery - that was always a weak point on those units, the battery housing is very fussy about the shape of the battery's negative terminal. Funny how toy manufacturers can get it right, but $2000 computer manufacturers can't ... sorry, I'm venting here!
LOL, and preaching to the choir ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
LOL yep thats what they told me as well. I gotta say once I save up enough cash I'm gonna replace the VR3 with another Pursuit. IMHO a far superior product. I don't care its not in color and I can't play games.
Mine did that too......of course I had tables to bail out on, after that.... got rid of it. X1 is FINE!Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
See Sludges' comments re: Underwater math.Quote:
Originally Posted by drtyjrzy
I doubt that the category mild type 1 (untreated) would qualify as getting bent in a scientific survey. eliminate those as not really bent and the numbers show a whole different thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
also, the bent cave divers are 1) those who attend to this forum and 2) those who have been bent or think maybe they have are the ones most likely to respond to the poll.
These polls are fun little topics for a discussion, but have no relationship whatsoever to reality.
-skip
I think you're seriously wrong about your first statement. I just know too many people who are reasonably tough individuals who felt serious pain, but didn't get it treated. You're suggesting that a lot of them are hypochondriacs. I can't guarantee that they aren't, but I'll bet you have one of more diving buddies who took one or more fair hits and never went into the chamber.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
Your next paragraph - 1) well, duh! - that's the whole point, it's THIS GROUP that I was interested in, and 2) based on what evidence?
This poll ain't perfect but it's a lot more indicative than you're claiming. Some percentage of that "type 1 untreated" group may not have actually had a hit, but let's say that somewhere between all and 1/2 actually did (and I'll bet it's way closer to the former)). That would still leave you with roughly:
60-72.5% no hit
12.5 to 25 % mild untreated
8.8% mild treated
5.8% serious treated
That's still a VERY large percentage. Still it makes sense really. Getting bent is a stochastic process. Computers and tables don't guarantee never getting hit, they aim for an acceptably low rate. Let's say that rate is 0.1% per dive (I'm guessing but I'll bet it's of that order). That's one so-called "undeserved" hit in 1000. And I'll bet that the average number of dives for people on this board is at or above 1000.
Plus - aren't you amazed that about 16% have taken rides?
Dive enough, and your chances of taking a hit start looking pretty large. Especially when a large percentage of those are deco dives, which by definition are "pushing" the tables.
another factor you have to consider with people who say they are still clean is denial. thats a huge factor in DCI is people being in denial about it. just another food for thought
I would seriously doubt that. Claimed dives or actual dives?Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I know a lot of divers who claim to have x number of dives, but when you analyze it, they're nowhere near.
I've been diving for 22 years, I'm working on a string of 119 consecutive months with at least one dive, and I'm still not at 1,000.
On the other hand, I've been diving for 19 years and teaching for 15 of those. I hit 1000 OW dives around 2000, and 1000 cave dives around 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Of course I was "lucky" enough to be working in the islands and on liveaboards from 1994 through 2000, and y'all know what I do now..... :)
Safe diving,
Rich
P.S. I have never counted any teaching dives as logged dives, but I do know instructors who log their pool dives......
I thought the diving board counted as an overhead environment. If not, I am not where near 1,000 cave dives...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
~Jeff
Well, you could just run a primary from the bathroom door, then using placements to keep the line low and tight, do a secondary on the faucet while leaving the taps on to "simulate flow", enter through the "bathtub restriction" and pull a sheet of plywood over the top of you for 25 mins or so..... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by icestac
Safe diving,
Rich
I'll admit that the 1000 is a WAG. Still, a LOT of the people here are pretty serious. If the number is WAY lower (say 200 or so) then these stats are a lot more worrying.
Andrew, unfortunately I think they fall into the "a lot more worrying" category since I would also doubt very much the 1000 - way lower I think, certainly if defining them as "real" dives = those that require at least a few minutes of deco. More like in the very low 100's, closer to the 200 already posted. My question is why!
Maybe the internet posters tend to be gunslingers...I don't know - goes along with the fallicy of typical statistical analysis - usually there is a bias that skews things.
Perhaps too much reliance on computers and not enough thinking, understanding and planning.
Maybe too many people doing shorter and more frequent dives. Lets face it, the single dive and go wait a day is fairly well understood...repetitive - no way it is understood.
Andrew, I have not picked up on it yet, and maybe I missed it...but I think you told me you have been bent. If true, what were the general circumstances? Food for discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showp...6&postcount=17Quote:
Originally Posted by addexdiver
Both were repetitive dives, and shortish (<2 hours each). maybe that does indeed play a part.
But I started this a little tongue in cheek after some speaker offered his services to talk about how brave he was after being bent. Presumably he thinks that getting bent makes him an expert - to me that's like a heart attack survivor thinking they're a cardiologist. I also wanted to test my hypothesis that a large percentage of cave divers have been bent. But as high as I thought the numbers would be, I'm still amazed to find out just how high a percentage of us have taken some sort of hit.
And believe me, I wish I'd taken the ride. I had to work the next day and was worried that they'd screw me around and not let me out in time. Result - I STILL get some residual pain in my left arm a year later, and I've had quite a few nights where I gave up and took a few ibuprofens and aspirins before sleeping. It was a stupid decision. I also think that my second hit was as a result of not having waited long enough after the first one - it was a few weeks later.
Take the ride, is my advice! And its corollary - don't dive without DAN.
OK, so now for the second poll... Russell, thanks for the idea...
I notice that as the poll gets more attention, the percentage of "hits" drops. That tells me that Skip is probably right about who responds to the poll. FWIW, I have all three safety awards, and have never had a DCS incident (knock on wood).Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
On another note, I know at least three cave divers who've taken chamber rides in the last couple of days.....
Safe diving,
Rich
Rich, were the 3 cave divers who took rides recently doing repetitive dives?
Hmm...I keep hearing this same scenario...empirically, I have come to the conclusion it does play a part (maybe major) and when I came to that point of view, I changed my diving pattern from a couple of one to two hour deco dives per day to only one longer deco dive in a day. I get a higher quality dive in, although I am still a bit concerned for how multiple days affects things - but when in cave country, I'll be damned if I won't get at least a solid dive in per day.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Ah, lol - hand me a rotten tomato...Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Quote:
Originally Posted by addexdiver
I'm not sure about the divers plans, but I don't do more than one long dive a day myself unless someone's paying me too!
For instance I was guiding a gentleman a while back who liked to do a double stage scooter in the morning and a single stage scooter in the afternoon and I don't think I've ever drank that much water in one week!
IMHO the big factors in getting bent is LACK OF HYDRATION and EXERTION AFTER THE DIVE! Anyways, back to filling tanks......
Safe diving,
Rich
Agreed, IMHAIIO (in my humble and ill-informed opinion)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
When I'm diving, I drink so much water that I have to pee with inconvenient frequency and my urine looks like Ginnie Springs water.
As for avoiding exertion, that's pretty much a lifestyle, both before and after diving! :)
It's kept me out of the chamber so far!
Mike
I had some weirdness after surfacing a bit sooner than I should've at little river.
some weird tunnel vision and extreme fatigue.
dunno if that counts or not...
I have a scar on my left hand, after a mix dive in cold water I got a rash below the scar that kind of stung and itched at the same time, puffy and red, went away after a day.
I've had a dive that afterward I crashed hard, EXTREME fatigue but no lasting symptoms outside 24 hours
I put never been bent tho, cause to me thats gray area, I dont' count that as bent.
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Take a good surface interval and take your time with collecting gear. And most importantly have a cold one between each trip to the water.
Normally i hang around at the surface for a little while to 'surface decompress' so to speak. This one time, I wanted to get out fast, packed up my gear, scooter and within 20 minutes had a sore shoulder. This got progressively worse in the hotel and my skin was getting mottled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Exertion after a long dive will get you indeed.
i've heard bubbling will be at its peak 45 mins to an hour after diving. that it's best to get out of the water immediately after the dive
Bubbles peak around 30 minutes after surfacing which is usually when most of us finish chewing the fat on the surface and get out and start all that exertion :) Implied advice from Simon Mitchell at Eurotek a few months ago was get out immediately, get the exerton over with and then rest afterwards.
It seems to me that when people start out - several small dives a day are the norm to build up the logbook and with no deco gas and some potentially agressive profiles like Little River it's not good. A couple of friends got bent that way last year.
I'm also a little curious as to how long ago these hits occurred. I took a type one hit in 1992 on a deep mix dive. We were using dissolved gas deco tables which REALLY maximized your gradient. Since deep stops, slower ascent rates and bubble control now play such a prominent role in deco theory, I have not had any other incident. If the poll addressed hits say in the last five years, I wonder if this would affect the results.
Are you talking cave dives or all dives Russell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I have been diving 22 years. I had over 200 dives in the first two years, then I started teaching. I hit 1000 in about 8 years, I think. I was pretty consistent about logging every dive ( for liability reasons) and I would pass my log books around to the students to encourage them to log dives after being certified. Some were pretty short, but if it did not qualify as a dive per PADI, I did not log it. Of course 1 or 2 weeks of 20+ dive "vacations" per year adds up pretty quick too. The quality/duration has definitely gone up and the quantity down as I got more into tech and cave.
That's because of those surface intervals between sumps! But then you might exert yourself a tiny bit after a dive. mmmmm :)Quote:
Originally Posted by FW