Well Meaning Relatives!

I’ve been diving for many years but cave diving for only the past three. During all of my open water diving, I never was questioned by family members about my decisions to dive. Recently a widely distributed article (and well written article) by CHRISTINE ARMARIO discussing the deaths of the two divers at Wayne’s World crossed more than one of my family members desk and prompted one to write a personal letter enclosing the article and the other to send me a link to the article, both well meaning, but meaning - to get me to stop this dangerous lifestyle for their sake and peace of mind.

Of course both are not divers, nor have any desire to cave dive, and so are ignorant. The point of my posting is: have any of you been confronted by your well meaning family to stop you from enjoying this activity? Since they are ignorant of the training, the equipment, the types of caves we dive, they can only relate to the articles and death notices that occasionally show up in the press. They know that I am a cave diver. Dead guy was a cave diver. Therefore: Cave diver will end up Dead Guy. The theory is as flawed as can be, but causes them to worry. Since none of my relatives (except my wife and daughter) know when I dive, only that I cave dive, their concern seems a bit misplaced.

Finally, what about you cave diving instructors? When you made the decision to focus on training in an overhead underwater environment, how did your family and friends react?

Any comments are appreciated. Below is the link to the article if you haven’t already read it.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/c...xsvc=7&cxcat=0

Take the article and a yellow highlighter, and highlight every mention of the fact that they were untrained for the type of diving they were doing. Then mail it back to them.

A few years back Harry Averill had an "open letter to family" posted on his old website explaining cave diving etc. You might email him and ask him for a copy.

Get a paper, cut out a bunch of articles where someone died in a car accident. Mail said articles to well meaning relatives and tell them, when they stop driving because they will end up dead in an accident, then and only then, will you stop diving.

Just a thought.

On a more serious note, just explain to them what the truth is. The ones who died were not trained as you are, they went where they shouldn't have gone, blah blah blah...

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Originally Posted by Deep-Thief

Get a paper, cut out a bunch of articles where someone died in a car accident. Mail said articles to well meaning relatives and tell them, when they stop driving because they will end up dead in an accident, then and only then, will you stop diving.

Just a thought.

On a more serious note, just explain to them what the truth is. The ones who died were not trained as you are, they went where they shouldn't have gone, blah blah blah...

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Actually I like the car accident angle better. It is far safer to cavedive than drive to the caves!

The greatest compliment I ever received from a family member was along these lines: "I don't know anything about WHAT you're doing, but I know you. And I know you'll do the right thing, get whatever training or equipment you need, and make good decisions. So, I'm not any more worried about you cave diving than anything else you do."

FWIW, I think Christine's article was one of the best I've seen for showing to family members because it highlights WHY they died.

Yes, I sent both a note stating that the deaths were to untrained cave divers, etc. But I suspect they will still think, "Dead Guy diver, you diver. Therefore soon to be Dead Guy". FWIW I'm not about to stop cave diving.

As I mentioned when this happened in November my two children asked me to stop cave diving after they heard about this incident.
It hit them hard because they go to school with and know one of the deceased diver's children.
I did not give them an answer until later that day when I picked them up from school. I told them the basics of why the divers died with the emphasis being on them unfortunately deciding to do this dive without the proper training and experience.
I reminded them of how careful and methodical I am about my diving and then I also talked about the dangers of everyday life -- such as getting into a car accident, etc.
(My newly scuba certified son was quick to point out though that you don't have to wear tanks on your back for survival while driving or riding in a car....)
I guess the bottom line is that they see and know how I go about my diving and dive training and they can see that I'm careful and respectful with it.
I was reminded of a day during my full cave course when my instructor asked if I thought I was ready to move up to the next level of training. And since I had had a somewhat bad day of diving I said no. He agreed and said good, because I don't want to have to tell your wife you died because I certified you before I thought you were ready.
I said thanks.
(Thanks again Jim....)

Unfortunately, it's my family that keeps me from continuing on to further training. While I am nearly 21 years old, my family is a huge influence on my life. My parents pay for school, help with the car, all of the above. I'm extremely grateful for what they do. That being said, I either live under their roof and stick to cavern diving, or I take Basic and I'm out on my own from now on. All of the articles, explaining, and talking haven't made a difference. It's a "risk they are unwilling to assume."

Keeping all of that in mind, nothing will stop me from cave diving at one point in my life when the time is right.

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Originally Posted by Scubastud16

my family that keeps me from continuing on to further training

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They're not keeping you from continuing, they're just delaying it. Don't worry about it, just PERFECT your cavern skills so that when you're on your own you'll be a better cave diver.

I was in my late thirties before I began cave diving. Don't rush things. The caves will be there for a long time. And there's a LOT of cavern to be seen.

I had an incident early into my tech diving (not cave) - Huge entanglement in fishing line at depth and visibility went to zero. Took a long time to cut free and I ended up with more deco obligation than I had gas. Ended up blowing 20 minutes of deco and spent the night watching for the slightest indication of DCS - I was extremely lucky in that regard.

I shared the details of this with everyone, diver or not, as just a gripping story. A week later I received a letter from my sister who lives in the same city (never received one before), expressing her concerns about my diving and suggesting I consider a different hobby. It was very thoughtful, well written, and intentioned.

I called her and talked to her about the risks/rewards, but stressed that the whole purpose of training was learning how to deal with contingencies and the "what-ifs". I also stressed what would have happened had I not had training and panicked. I assured her that this was a slow progression with training and experience along the way. Unfortunately, some of the best experience is learned through bad experiences, but the training is what keeps me alive to continue learning. That satisfied her

Fast forward ten years later and I'm now married. When people have questioned my wife about my "insane" diving interests, she has repeatedly defended me by talking about the training and feeling confident that I won't go beyond the limits of my training - with one caveat - She doesn't have any problem with me making solo open water dives, no matter how deep or even into wrecks. However, she made me promise that I wouldn't do any solo cave dives. I'm so early in my cave diving that it's not even something that crosses my mind - yet! ;-)

For others, I would stress that almost all training revolves around how to deal with contingencies and what lessons are learned from other incidents/accidents. I appreciate the sarcastic ways of replying. However, a mature, well-reasoned, response will do more good toward showing you take safety seriously.

-Tom

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

They're not keeping you from continuing, they're just delaying it. Don't worry about it, just PERFECT your cavern skills so that when you're on your own you'll be a better cave diver.

I was in my late thirties before I began cave diving. Don't rush things. The caves will be there for a long time. And there's a LOT of cavern to be seen.

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Fortunately, I'm not all that worried about it. I have a lot of cavern to see, I still have a little bit of gear to collect (doubles + DS), and I have plenty of buddies to make the best diver I can be before I enter cave training.

Oh, and when we all go OW diving (they are certified, along with my brother)...they pay...so I keep my mouth shut! :diver

After blowing off 20 minutes of deco, "watching for the slightest indication of DCS" took place under medical supervision, I hope. :smt102

My parents do not approve of my diving but I have managed to keep from being disowned. Mostly, I don't ever talk about diving and that keeps it out of sight, out of mind. I paid for every class after ow and all of the gear with my own money.

Thats weird...when I told my parents about getting into cave diving and the importance of all the different kinds of gear, I found small holes poked in my canister light and the batteries removed from my backups :smt102

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Originally Posted by sskasser

After blowing off 20 minutes of deco, "watching for the slightest indication of DCS" took place under medical supervision, I hope. :smt102

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That would be a negative. :roll: Don't try this at home.

My family too is concerned with my cave diving. And they know it's tennessee cold black holes, not the nice gin-clear water of florida caves (they've seen the pictures). At my age (not 20's), my mother has learned to hug me and hold on a little longer and even manage a smile. my wife of 9 years, has often said that if i go on to such and such, that's when she'll put her foot down. of course i go on to such and such and her foot stays up.

But I can see it in their eyes when I say "I'm going cave diving, be back in a couple of hours...," or "I'm cave diving, see you next week," (florida trip). They worry.

My general life-long strategy and answer has been, "if there's no chance of dying, then there's no point in going." A bit flippant, a bit of a lie, but too many people live a life that is so boring, so contained, so full of dread of death, that I can't imagine they are living at all. I don't want to die in a cave (or anywhere else either), but dang, if you got to go, it's better than a heart attack in front of a tv, or driving down the road, or while asleep in bed.

My wife tells me every so often, "have a good time, but if you die, I'm burying you in a suit and tie." She knows I hate suits and ties, and that small threat is her way of convincing herself it won't happen today.


-skip

Y'all must have the wrong families! When I got into OW diving, and started showing my family the pictures, my Father went out and took an OW class. I have 2 brothers and a sister that did the same. I even took my sister to Mexico, and let her do some of the "Cave-ern" diving they call OW.

Nice thought provoking thread. Two of my kids are cave trained. One is Full Cave, the other is Intro. I have made it a practice not to have all three of us in a cave at a time. It would be hard enough for my wife Jayne if two of us died, but if all three of us perrished...well I hate to think of it for her and the third child that is only interested in diving warm water pretty fishes. Training, Training, Training, and accepting the risks that go with it. But most importantly, reducing those risks to an acceptable level. When ever I think of pushing thirds, just to see whats around the next bend....I think of my family and what if...... Ken

My mother is 77, an open water diver since 1987. She always says if it weren't for the weight of the gear she'd cave dive.

She loves to see pictures and videos of cave diving. She manages to ride along with me on a day trip at least once a year. A dive she made in Orange Grove Sink was the only fresh water dive she's ever made (against ~250 salt water dives).

She also loves meeting cave divers. She attended the NSS-CDS Social at Jackson Blue in October 2007.

When i took my open water class, about 6 weeks later my dad( who has had polo since he was born and broke a hip a year and a half ago) took open water at ginne. I went with him. It was the happiest day of my life and will never forget it.

Sadly my family is against cave diving. They love OW but hate the caves :( I tell them that in a 6 months I'll be 18 and I'll sign the release form myself, so they can get trained with me now or they can wait on the shore. :smt086

I started caving in Jr. high. Eventually my mother just rolled her eyes and said not to even tell her about it, she'd rather not know and worry. Diving and cave diving is pretty much the same, no one else in my family has ever had any kind of interest in anything even remotely like that.

Marbry

i don't think my mama likes it, but i'm 40 & she doesn't interfere. in fact, she makes trips easier for me, keeping my baby so i can go.

the only thing i'll add is - if you're going to call your family after your day of diving, make sure they have an idea of when your day of diving is likely to end. mama went ape**** once, freaked with worry & called ginnie staff, because i hadn't called yet. since i dive peacock a lot, she expected a call by 5 or 6, but i was camping at ginnie and had gone on a galaxy dive. i had the phone in my hand calling her when the staff came by to say she'd called. a freaking family member really harshes your buzz, so try not to go there.

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

make sure they have an idea of when your day of diving is likely to end.

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Yes, and if I expect to be on the road by 6pm, I tell her I'll call her around 8pm. Then I call and say we got out of the water a little early.

I don't think she's wise to it yet!

Once my life insurance was increased to $500,000.00, my wife started encouraging me to dive more. "Why don't you go diving tonight? You dont need a buddy do you? Don't worry about that reel, it will untangle itself as you go. That free flow isn't too bad is it? I'm sure the rain didn't screw up the vis that bad." It's been good to have that type of support.

My wife does not like it that I cave dive, but she accepts it. She knows how much I enjoy it. Her only condition is that she does not want me to tell her what time I will get in the water or what time I get out. We make arrangements for me to call at an exact time. If I call early she freaks because she thinks there has been an accident and someone is calling to give her bad news, if I call late she freaks out with worry. If I call right on time she is happy.

We have had the talk about training, diving within limitations, etc. She respects me and trusts me, but nothing stops the concern she has for my personal safety. I just hold up my end of the bargain and call when I should.

Mark Vlahos

I have also been in the same boat as many here. I'm 24, they were encouraging me to take OW and get certified, a few years back. However, once I started diving springs and slowly making the transition towards that type of diving their attitude changed a bit. Over time they have eased up, but are still concerned. Like the OP, they were most concerned because they knew nothing of it and the training I have taken and will be taking in the future.

Instead of keeping it a mystery, I show my folks the gear I dive with, how it works, and try to answer their questions. And once they saw the big picture they were a lot more comfortable with the fact that I want to do this type of diving.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Once my life insurance was increased to $500,000.00, my wife started encouraging me to dive more. "Why don't you go diving tonight? You dont need a buddy do you? Don't worry about that reel, it will untangle itself as you go. That free flow isn't too bad is it? I'm sure the rain didn't screw up the vis that bad." It's been good to have that type of support.

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Hmmm, perhaps I should have a visit with you wife....then you and I can go for a dive! :smt077 You trust me, right John?

It's the same age-old battle of society to suppress the masculine giftings (desire to conquor, explore, adventure, risk, danger, etc). Just a different day. "Let us protect you from yourself, be safe and predictable like the rest of us who have no lives of our own", blah, blah, blah.

Can I take a guess that the "well meaning relatives" who sent their letters of concern were female? Just remember, if it were left up to women to do the actual explorations of Earth, we'd all still be living in Europe today.

Get off the porch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by aw

It's the same age-old battle of society to suppress the masculine giftings (desire to conquor, explore, adventure, risk, danger, etc). Just a different day. "Let us protect you from yourself, be safe and predictable like the rest of us who have no lives of our own", blah, blah, blah.

Can I take a guess that the "well meaning relatives" who sent their letters of concern were female? Just remember, if it were left up to women to do the actual explorations of Earth, we'd all still be living in Europe today.

Get off the porch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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:butthead: My dad is much more worried about his daughter "crawling in them holes" than my mom, and my daughter has shown more interest in following in my footsteps (cave diving wise) than my son. Careful with those stereotypes, darlin'. They'll bite you in the bee-hind.

Georgia boys! :roll: :smt081

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Originally Posted by aw

Can I take a guess that the "well meaning relatives" who sent their letters of concern were female? Just remember, if it were left up to women to do the actual explorations of Earth, we'd all still be living in Europe today.

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And where did the Europeans come from?

I guess that I lucked out some how. The family supports my decision to but Mom would rather not hear that I am going diving but would rather hear that I made it back and had fun. My wife has so supportive to the point of when I wanted to buy a VR3, she told me that if it makes the dives I do safer, then buy it. She has at times even told me to go diving vice sitting around the house. But she does put her foot down if the word solo comes up. I would rather die doing something that I love than say a car wreck.

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Originally Posted by aw

It's the same age-old battle of society to suppress the masculine giftings (desire to conquor, explore, adventure, risk, danger, etc). Just a different day. "Let us protect you from yourself, be safe and predictable like the rest of us who have no lives of our own", blah, blah, blah.

Can I take a guess that the "well meaning relatives" who sent their letters of concern were female? Just remember, if it were left up to women to do the actual explorations of Earth, we'd all still be living in Europe today.

Get off the porch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Wow, mysogynize much? You are kidding right???

(yeah, I know, not really a word, but you get the idea)

Kim is cavern certified, so she's fine with my going in the caves. When we were at Jackson Blue in the cavern I had to turn her around, she was heading down into the cave to see what was there :-)

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Originally Posted by aw

...Just remember, if it were left up to women to do the actual explorations of Earth, we'd all still be living in Europe today.

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From AW's profile:
Why are you interested in joining the CDF:
to argue and fight

Let the firestorm begin! Thanks for keeping things interesting AW <g>

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Originally Posted by skip

. I don't want to die in a cave (or anywhere else either), but dang, if you got to go, it's better than a heart attack in front of a tv, or driving down the road, or while asleep in bed.

.


-skip

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I might argue with two out of three there.
I get more flak from the people I work with. One girl is a biker. I tell her that is more dangerous than cave diving. I only have to worry about me and my buddies. She has to worry about every idiot on the road. I tell them that my goal is to NOT die in a nursing home. That is my fear.

I've seen many people quote the statistic that it's more dangerous driving to the cave than diving the cave. Hell, I've used it myself. But really? I'm a careful driver and diver. Almost everyone drives though and I think the Darwin effect skews the numbers versus diving. Maybe not but I personally feel safer driving than diving. I think about the potential of dying when I go diving and carefully plan to avoid it. I don't think about it much when driving unless I start driving really fast. Although maybe this means I'm more likely to die driving because I'm not thinking about it and therefore not planning sufficiently to avoid it. As you can see, I'm conflicted <g>. Regardless, I'm not going to stop cave diving. Going to be at JB this weekend. Woohoo!

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Originally Posted by bullfrog

...my goal is to NOT die in a nursing home. That is my fear.

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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

i don't think my mama likes it, but i'm 40 & she doesn't interfere. in fact, she makes trips easier for me, keeping my baby so i can go.

the only thing i'll add is - if you're going to call your family after your day of diving, make sure they have an idea of when your day of diving is likely to end. mama went ape**** once, freaked with worry & called ginnie staff, because i hadn't called yet. since i dive peacock a lot, she expected a call by 5 or 6, but i was camping at ginnie and had gone on a galaxy dive. i had the phone in my hand calling her when the staff came by to say she'd called. a freaking family member really harshes your buzz, so try not to go there.

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I make sure to never ever call and say "out of the water, every things fine." No news is good news. Once you start with the calling the one time you don't causes too much anguish. It's not like family is close enough to do anything about it anyway (at least not in sufficient time to make a difference).

-skip

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Originally Posted by FW

And where did the Europeans come from?

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Well when a mommy european and a daddy european love each other...

That or a lot of loose european women ;)

~Jeff

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Originally Posted by aw

It's the same age-old battle of society to suppress the masculine giftings (desire to conquor, explore, adventure, risk, danger, etc). Just a different day. "Let us protect you from yourself, be safe and predictable like the rest of us who have no lives of our own", blah, blah, blah.

Can I take a guess that the "well meaning relatives" who sent their letters of concern were female? Just remember, if it were left up to women to do the actual explorations of Earth, we'd all still be living in Europe today.

Get off the porch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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No, my two brothers sent the article and the admonitions to stop diving. Not Females!

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Originally Posted by skip

I Once you start with the calling the one time you don't causes too much anguish.

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I went diving Sunday afternoon at a lake ("thermal cooling pond" to be exact) in the mountains of WV. When i get to the county line, there was a sign that said "no call service, police monitor CB Channel 9"
Good thing I had a CB in the truck, but I didnt have to use it.
I told the wife if I didnt call by a certain time to call a buddy that lived in the area so he could check on me. As I got finished up and left, I passed a gas station and thought "i should stop and use their pay phone" but I didn't. well, it was over an hour after that that I finally got cell service (WAY past the due time) but my wife knows that no news is good news, so she hadn't rung the alarm yet.

(Or maybe she had wishful thinking?:smt102 come to think of it, she did just renew my life insurance)

Fortunately, my wife is also a cave diver, so no problems there. In fact, she prefers I be doing a solo cave dive than training students in the gulf because cave diving is safer!

My mother does worry, but not openly. She knows she won't stop me from doing it. I call her most days, especially when I've told her I'm planning a dive a certain day. Fortunately, she doesn't live in Florida so it's not right in her face. But she has been here to visit and seen me swimming into the caves. My mother doesn't know I solo. That would cause too much worry.

As for being a cave instructor, by the time I did that cave diving was already a part of it. I think they actually see the instructing as a safer venture because I'm "more careful because I'm responsible for others now." Actually, I'm just as careful, but whatever works to keep them at bay. They never even blinked an eye when I started working on becoming a cave instructor.

I always give my wife a quick call to let her know I'm out of the water and heading home.

Most of my family Dives, except my wife. I am the only cave diver, but my dad also does deep/technical stuff, just not cave.
Considering that I use to disarm bombs for the army and did 2 tours to Iraq, they accept my cave diving with open arms. They know that I have always taken a very methodical approach to everything I do, including diving.
My mother still worries about me, but don't all mothers do that?
And for my Wife to be a non-diver, she accepts it and we talk about it alot. She had used SCUBA in the pool and understands most of the jargon, but it just doesnt appeal to her. We have an agreement, I dive sunday mornings while she goes to church. I wont get into religion here, but we all have our differant ways of worship, and mine happens to be underwater. and she accepts that.

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Originally Posted by Scott

... I dive sunday mornings while she goes to church. I wont get into religion here, but we all have our differant ways of worship, and mine happens to be underwater. and she accepts that.

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I used to get baptized in the Haymarket (Millbrook) Quarry every Sunday :-)

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Originally Posted by icestac

Well when a mommy european and a daddy european love each other...

That or a lot of loose european women ;)

~Jeff

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- ok, now that's funny, i don't care who you are...

-skip

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Originally Posted by skip

- ok, now that's funny, i don't care who you are...

-skip

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True, but I just wondered why AW thought mankind began in Europe :-D

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Originally Posted by FW

True, but I just wondered why AW thought mankind began in Europe :-D

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i'm sure you meant to say humankind.... :yawinkle:

be careful, shirley's around here somewhere.

-skip

We have a strained relationship at best (read this as we exist in parallel universes), so when I started training last November during a "stop" on my way down to the Keys; I just never brought it up.

She would be more concerned with the money vs. my safety (sort of funny as I already owned 3 sets of BP & Wings a set of doubles and more **** than I can list). So I am operating from the don't ask,don't tell philosophy

I did tell me son who is OW certified (as is my wife) with a reasonable amount of diving experience.

In my personal experience, driving is more dangerous than diving.
In 20 years of diving (but only 3 of cave diving) I have lost one dive buddy to a traffic accident but none to dive accidents. Two of my buddies have been bent, however; one in my presence.
My wife prefers my diving to my former sport of mountaineering. In 30 years of mountaineering I lost 5 buddies to climbing accidents and 2 to traffic accidents. For many years I told buddies who called me "overcautious", "I buried the last guy who told me that." (The buddy who criticised my caution on Mt. Robson, died on Mt. St. Helens a year later.)

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Originally Posted by icestac

Well when a mommy european and a daddy european love each other...

That or a lot of loose european women ;)

~Jeff

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Europe is a big place..... there are some mommies and daddies you do not want to mingle, let alone 'love each other'.

Lot of interesting thoughts...

Couple brief thoughts of my own

I find that most of the concern is based on fear, and that fear is primarily due to ignorance of the precautions we take. So, I first acknowledge their concerns, then admit empathize that I have been spooked a couple times. I then start moving the conversation towards the training and how the risks (fears) are managed. I throw in that it is the self preservation that keeps me from doing any of the dangerous/crazy stuff... which may include a quick discussion of the latest death(s), especially if that's what is why they are concerned, and what is thought to have gone wrong.

I also try to share the joy and passion of the caving community, so others can see that I do it because it makes me happy. (Why wouldn't they what me to be happy?) I've noticed that DVDs/videos of cave diving really help explain the 'why I do it' questions.

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Originally Posted by skip

i'm sure you meant to say humankind.... :yawinkle:

be careful, shirley's around here somewhere.

-skip

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ROFLMAO! No worries here, I'm not a feminist...you can carry my tanks any time...especially if we ever get back into Rich's! :smt081

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Originally Posted by FW

True, but I just wondered why AW thought mankind began in Europe :-D

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I didn't say mankind began in Europe. I was referencing the fact that exploration of the Americas began with European countries trying to find a new route to India, etc. It's much easier to expand from the Middle East when you can simply walk, as opposed to going against the grain of popular belief that the Earth was flat and you'd fall off it if you sailed into the blue yonder. It took men with kahunas to take the risk.

Same goes for the popular belief that cave diving is dangerous. Go against the grain of the "let's all just be safe and sound" and take a risk.

Scott, Mount storm?

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Originally Posted by aw

I didn't say mankind began in Europe. I was referencing the fact that exploration of the Americas began with European countries trying to find a new route to India, etc. It's much easier to expand from the Middle East when you can simply walk, as opposed to going against the grain of popular belief that the Earth was flat and you'd fall off it if you sailed into the blue yonder. It took men with kahunas to take the risk.

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Theoretically, the first people to North America did "just walk". They followed herds of wild game all the way across Asia, and the Bering Strait land bridge. But we are getting a little off topic...

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Originally Posted by aw

Can I take a guess that the "well meaning relatives" who sent their letters of concern were female? Just remember, if it were left up to women to do the actual explorations of Earth, we'd all still be living in Europe today.

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Thanks for the encouragement to be here at the CDF. http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Of course I notice in your profile you say your purpose coming to the CDF is to "argue and fight." Boy, that stereotypical male characteristic surely is an advantage to humankind. http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

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Originally Posted by skip

i'm sure you meant to say humankind.... :yawinkle:

be careful, shirley's around here somewhere.

-skip

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I actually have solved the problem of dealing with this language issue. However, I know full well, that no one will actually listen to me and adopt this.

The root syllable is "man." We can have a congressman or postman. We have wo-man and hu-man. Each time, we simple add a prefix to the root syllable. To solve all the language awkwardness, all we have to do is ad a prefix to indicate the male fraction of peoplehood. You know like he-man or yo-man. It's SIMPLE. Too bad no one will actually adopt it.

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Originally Posted by bullfrog

Scott, Mount storm?

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You have guess right!
Alex, tell the man what he has won!

I also dive alot of the PA quarries that are probobally close to you too (Dutch, Bainbridge, Willow).

Forrest- I live half an hour away from Haymarket/Millbrook Quarry.

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Originally Posted by aw

It's the same age-old battle of society to suppress the masculine giftings (desire to conquor, explore, adventure, risk, danger, etc). Just a different day. "Let us protect you from yourself, be safe and predictable like the rest of us who have no lives of our own", blah, blah, blah.

Can I take a guess that the "well meaning relatives" who sent their letters of concern were female? Just remember, if it were left up to women to do the actual explorations of Earth, we'd all still be living in Europe today.

Get off the porch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by aw

... It took men with kahunas to take the risk.

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Aloha AW,

From the bottom of my protea, Happy Kamehameha! Best of luck with the Kahuna situation, I can begin to understand how they can be a problem.

See ya on the Big Island, Dude.

Madam Pele

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Thanks for the encouragement to be here at the CDF. http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Of course I notice in your profile you say your purpose coming to the CDF is to "argue and fight." Boy, that stereotypical male characteristic surely is an advantage to humankind. http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

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What's actually funny is when women say that they are more nurturing and relational in general than men, men don't get offended. They couldn't care less, cause they don't wanna be. But when you make a generalization about men that excludes the women - Wow!! It's like a self-imposed inferiority complex breaks out (claws included). Just check the passenger manifest aboard the Mayflower. It speaks for itself.

HAHA. You guys (oopps, gals too) know I got to rile you up.

PS - "The Mayflower"?? Who named that ship anyway? A woman? "The Big Kuhunas" mighta been more masculine sounding, esp for what they were attempting.

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Originally Posted by SueG

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Aloha AW,

From the bottom of my protea, Happy Kamehameha! Best of luck with the Kahuna situation, I can begin to understand how they can be a problem.

See ya on the Big Island, Dude.

Madam Pele

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Hey Susan, I was just looking at your linked website and recall when I ordered the CDS men's ring from you about 5 or 6 years ago. Got it on right now in fact. Wear it everyday. Kudos. I really like the ring.