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Did you take all your cave courses from same instructor? (Not counting in specialist courses like stage/DPV etc) Why, why not? Would you recommend doing it one way or another? (Or why do you plan to take your cave courses from same/different instructor/s)
I had a great intro instructor, but I took app/full in Mexico to get a different perspective on the training, see different systems, and try to ferret out any training gaps or bad habits I had picked up as a basic diver. My second instructor plans dives much differently and showed me a bunch of new little tricks. The way I see it, each instructor looks at their students through a different prism, so it's good to have more than one set of eyes on you while you are learning the craft.
Nope. I did the first half (cavern & intro) in FL and 2nd (app & full) in MX. I like working with different instructors - each has something different to offer and you get away from the "there's only one way to do this" mentality. Friends have also used different instructors so we've also been able to teach each other a thing or two. Our SoCal group has worked with a number of instructors (in a training or mentoring environment) including:
Rose Meadows
Mike Ainge
Scott Carnahan
Matt Matthes
Tamara Kendall
Ralph D
Rich Courtney
Corey Mearns
Jim Wyatt
Larry Green
Bruce
SInce I am able to teach cave diving from 2 differant agencies, and from what I see when I go to FL now and watch some of the other well known instructors and some that arnt as well known. I think it would be nice to make it so that you can not take a weeks worth of class and be done. Also that you should have to take differnat levels with differant instructors and that maybe just maybe you would be requierd to take each level after you have completed so many dives at that level before you could move on.
I have sat and looked and pondered about this long and hard but do not see any way it working out. I know of many that I have trained and some have gone past their level of training and yes I let thm know how unhappy I am about it. I see many fromm other instructors and know they would do the same.
It is kind of a double edge sword that they think they have learned it and have read all about it and they know what they are doing. As we have found out from a accident at WW it shows that there is still so much to learn. From that accident I have gotten a few that are willing to finish now. Sucks it took that to drive it home.
We can read all about the damage in all the systems. I know many of who their instructor was and that they would not let them pass doing dives like they are doing and their bouancy but once out of an instructors eyes many could give a rats A$$ about how they do it THEIR way. We might need to go back and after class make so many dives be a guided dive so to speak with a mentor before they are allowed to go on.
Remember once you ahve the class and the training it is nothing more then a liceanse to learn how to cave dive, they are just tought the skills to survie and now need to build from there.
Look at all the divers that say they need a shake down dive. You should have done all that before in OW keeping all your skills up to par and be able to jump in and go with out doing anything that has to get your skills back.
Remember how much the SPORT has grown and all the divers that only cave dive a few time a year. They arn't as lucky to have so many systems or be able to want to come to my area and be in the colder darker water. A true or a good cave diver will always be spot on no mater how long it has been before they have been in a cave. If it has been a long time, they will do all he ycan in OW so that when they are at the caves, they are ready to go.
It is US (all cave divers) are the ones responable for keeping the systems nice and paying attention to our control. Once out of class with a card, it is hard to kep track of divers and how they will perform.
SLIM
Took PADI Cavern up here in New England.
Took NACD Intro Cave in Florida with Mike O'Leary. Since my initial cavern certification was PADI, the deal with Mike was that the course would be Cavern/Intro if necessary, and just Intro if not.
Took NSS/CDS Apprentice & Full Cave with Mike O'Leary as well, about 18 months and 40 cave dives from Intro to Full.
In many years of learning to do (and teaching others to do) some fairly complex and occasionally dangerous things, (firefighting, paramedic-ing, technical rescue, mountaineering, rock & ice climbing, ski patrolling, vertical caving, whitewater paddling, emergency, critical care, and critical care transport nursing, as well as cave and tech diving) I have to say that Michael O'Leary is one of the finest instructors I have encountered in any field.
I can see the virtue of taking classes with more than one instructor. Fortunately I have had dive buddies and mentors to help me address my inadequacies!
Mike
All my cave courses were with the same instructor, and as long as you like what you are getting from the first instructor, I believe this works well, since it can be like one long ongoing course as you continue to absorb all the instructor has to offer as a cave diver as well as through his course content.
I also continued to dive with the instructor after the course was completed as a mentor as well as picking up another mentor who added another perspective and a focus on some different skills.
As has already been discussed elsewhere on this board, the mentors who come along after certification can be as if not more important than the original classwork.
WJH
I had never heard of cave diving when my dive shop suggested I take the training. Had never been been to Florida to go diving. Really didn't know about the different levels of training. Was informed about the four classes. That doing all of them in doubles I would not qualify for a cavern or intro cert. Did not research instructors. Went down with one of the instructors from my shop for a 7 day cave class.
Had a great course with Bill Rennaker that kicked by butt. At the end Bill told us it was a "licenses to learn" when we were completing the paperwork. This class really pushed me to go out, learn and be a better diver.
Would I suggest this method to everyone, no. For some people it works very well. I doubt I would have been happy doing the courses piecemeal. Being able to attend a "zero to hero" is a valid option.
Cheers!!
Kevin Jones
You forgot Steve Bogaerts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali Knucklehead
i think it is a good idea to use different instructors.
cavern/intro Bruce Tipps
full cave Rose Meadows
scooter Bill Oestreich
sidemount bill rennaker
Pat Watson
Dive safe,
Celia
I used a different instructor for cavern, intro, and then one instructor for Apprentice and finally Cave. Each level had many dives between and many months, I stayed at the apprentice level the full year before going full cave. I believe I learn more and certainly different skills from each instructor. And as a bonus I have 3 friends in the cave instructor business instead of one.
I had a great cavern/intro instructor in Florida. Very strict and he taught me a lot.
There were a couple reasons that I went with another instructor for full cave. The two people that I did intro with were not really all that keen on continuing on to full cave and I was. I ended up becoming friends with a tech instructor and diving with her at a few places. She brought up heading down to Missouri for a long weekend of cave diving with another friend of mine to finish up the training. It was easier and much cheaper to go down to Missouri and I had grown to really respect her so it was a no-brainer for me to get my training through her. It was nice training and getting experience in the different areas.
I'll be completing Full in about two and a half weeks, all with Rich Courtney.
Went with him originally because he's just about the nicest guy on the planet, and I knew him well after buying all sorts of stuff from East. Wanted to go with him for Apprentice, but he was busy, and I was going to go with a different instructor (hadn't picked one yet) when he managed to get two days off just before classes started for Fall semester.
About 50 dives between each level (excluding Cavern as I did Cavern/Basic) over several months.
Rich knows me and my diving well, so he knows where to push me hard to improve and where I am already a good diver. He also stays involved in my diving--he'll ask me about the dives I'm doing if he hears rumors. He's always there to give advice and help when it's needed.
Hmm.... interesting question. My Cavern/Intro was with Michael O'Leary. I then did 30 cave dives. I went back and finished with Michael earning a cave diver certification. I am very glad I did my 30 dives between, it made a world of difference. My dive buddy didn't make the 30 dives and it was clear when we went back.
I then moved to Mexico and did about 14 days of training with Steve Bogaerts. Those 14 days were spread out over 10 months. Each course built on the prior. Between training sessions, I went out and practiced the skills I learned. We covered: Basic Sidemount, Advanced Sidemount, Survey, DPV, and Stage/Multiple Stage. I think the most interesting part of progressive training is that as I progressed through the courses, the instructor would raise the bar till I hit or just exceeded my ability. I would fail the skill or make a mistake and learn from the mistake. Each time I came away with a bunch of homework, or skills that I needed to practice. The bar was regularly raised and I would have to work to reach the new level.
On top of that I audited two courses, one intro course with Michael and my wife's full cave with Steve. I did my CCR/Trimix training with Andrew Driver. And on a day to day basis I dive with a full cave instructor, Patrick Widmann. Actually, all my dive buddies here in Mexico are dive instructors, some technical some not.
I believe that a plurality of ideas is essential to surviving. Each one of those people, plus many others, have really influenced my ideas and procedures. I am glad that I mixed it up, I think I really benefited from it. And I think my dive buddies have benefited from it. I have been able to bring ideas from each of my instructors back to the group and everyone gets to try them out, if they chose. I am grateful to have had an opportunity to learn from each of them.
Hans
Well, it seems like there is a bit more support for getting different angles from different people. That was my take on things even before I got started. Why not mix&match and see what is different too.
I wonder though if one thing about not changing instructors is fear that once you found one good one you do not want to take a risk with the next one? I know for sure that not living anywhere near where one could actively interact with cave divers and instructors, it’s hard to pick. Every time one asks for references dozen names come up. (And 2 dozen people tell how great everyone is – and 4 dozen people on TDS tell how many lousy instructors pass people with no skills, heh.)
Some names are coming up more than others but not knowing the ones giving references makes it hard to rate. Basing choices on internet board opinions can be a bit hairy. Talking to the instructors is good for scoping out but it’s somewhat limited way of getting information too. How would instructors know how their style compares to others? (Well, I guess some at least know whether they are self-proclaimed hard-asses which is fairly descriptive…) And asking your previous instructor who might be good 'next instructor’ might just lead you to very similar instructor…
If one was looking for good but for slightly different type of an instructor how to refine the search other than talking to different instructors? Best ones to compare would probably be ex-students who have had your instructor for one of theirs?
Don't forget Steve Forman.....:yawinkle:
Two of the masters -
Cavern - Basic w/ Bill Oestrich
Apprentice - Cave w/ Johnny Richards
Mix - w/ Bill Oestrich
Only meantioned Mix because we did it exclusively in caves....
How did you take mix before me :( How was class? Terrifying I hope! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by CaveCrazyJax
fun, exhilerating, deep, lots of work for relatively short bottom times......worth it!
JH
I took my cave course on rebreather and because they will not issue a card for CCR until you are finished we had to get it all the courses done before we could cave dive. I think thats nuts but it is they way they do it. Thus, we pretty much had to use the same instructor for all of it, which was great with Jill Heinrth. Almost 15 hours underwater.
Tracy Grubbs - Cavern
Jill Heinerth - Intro, Apprentice, Full Cave (IANTD)(NSS-CDS)
Paul Heinerth - Full Cave (NSS-CDS)
Pat Watson: Cavern and Into to Cave
3 years of diving
Lamar Hires: Apprentice and Cave
Lamar Hires: Recovery and RRSOM
This will be a strange post for me as my instructor has posted here as has another diver that does (has) provide(d) mentoring.
With me there is even a little more of a twist...he has been my primary instructor basically since OW, so I have done AOW, Stress/Rescue, EANx, AdvEANx and Deco Procedures in addition to the overhead.
In my case, it has worked for various reasons...from the beginning I think I had a interest in doing things more than casually and I think we built from there. Also, he is involved with more than one agency (actually 3) and he not only dives very actively at levels over what he teaches, but he continues to evolve his style and configuration with technology and missions. So, even though one instructor, it is not a case of "This is the only way to do it" (which is not to be confused with him not saying, "That will get you hurt.") We have also traveled and trained both here in the home state and in NFL.
I have also done a variety of diving in different environments/conditions with a cross section of people at the appropriate level between my training levels. So, I have been in front of many other divers, as well as doing some diving with him outside a formal class, though he always sees what it going on with me and any other diver in the area. I have been exposed to a variety of styles and performances. I have never felt undertrained.
The gentleman that I also consider a mentor is very familiar with my instructor and diving progression and provided not only an excellent diving example, but lots of communication on equipment pro/con's.
So, I have had one instructor, but a broad swath of diving environments.
edit - I just realized this is my first post on this board!
My mentor is also on this board. He pretty much taught me how to dive, then helped me adapt to dry suit, doubles and stages. He is not an instructor, but he prepared me very well for my classes. Even to this day, I learn something from him every time we go diving.
To answer the question from the OP, I did cavern with one person locally, and then my intro, apprentice and full cave was handled by John and Shelly Orlowski, and Reggie Ross helped out as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Forgot about the courses you and Chris have done in MX.
just a quick comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLIM
I think you may be simply referring to your own interpretation of what "shakedown dive" means. Regardless of keeping your skills up when you enter a cave it's simply a different environment and there are many more effects than just remembering how to tie a reel and
so on. You just need to get your cave spider sense back and it seems to me to be a very prudent thing to do. :)
LL
EDIT: I forgot the point of the thread here, I would Love all my students to stick with me throughout, but you know, I can't
deny that learning different perspectives is very healthy for them as long as they always get quality training.
Jim Wyatt for Cavern and Basic Cave (NSS-CDS and IANTD), excellent instructor