Rewarding Good Behavior

On another board, the conversation about the School Sink fatalities made me think about ways in which we can convey a message that safe cave diving at all levels is equally, if not more impressive, than exploration, major dives, and other feats that we laud as a community. I suggested that the NSS-CDS, the NACD and other cave training agencies find a way of rewarding a safe attitude among cave divers. We presently have awards for the number of safe cave dives after full cave, but the idea of a "spirit award" came to me to be given to divers at any level of cave training who demonstrate an attitude toward safety and community that we can all respect and admire.

For example, divers who don't go beyond their levels of training, who seek to really master the skills, techniques and art of cave diving, who are great emissaries of the cave community by demonstrating positive actions and attitudes in their relationships with land owners, other cave divers, etc., who are role models for safe diving practices, who volunteer in the community among other traits and attributes which would reflect positively on the cave community in general would and should be recognized for their committment to safety and community.

I'm not sure how this could be implemented or what accounting procedures would work to verify such an award, or if it has any value to the community? Any thoughts or opinions on this? Do we already have one of these that I'm not aware of at this time?

Forgive the cross post, but I wanted to put this idea out to as many cavers as possible for attention or consideration.

Awesome idea :clapper

I liked the idea when you first posted it on TDS. I still like it. My main concern is verification of the qualifications. I suggest this be an award divers must be nominated for rather than one they can apply for. In addition there should be a requirement that 2 other people vote for the nominated to receive the award. This will make it mean something. Although I think I understand the concept behind the Abe Davis, Nicholson, and Exley awards, it's not difficult to forge a log showing the required number of dives. So the value of those awards (to me anyway) isn't very high. It's for that reason I've yet to apply for one.

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Originally Posted by RN

I liked the idea when you first posted it on TDS. I still like it. My main concern is verification of the qualifications. I suggest this be an award divers must be nominated for rather than one they can apply for. In addition there should be a requirement that 2 other people vote for the nominated to receive the award. This will make it mean something. Although I think I understand the concept behind the Abe Davis, Nicholson, and Exley awards, it's not difficult to forge a log showing the required number of dives. So the value of those awards (to me anyway) isn't very high. It's for that reason I've yet to apply for one.

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I agree with you. Your ideas for determining award winners are the kind of thing that I had in mind. Those divers who gain the attention of instructors and divers in the community can be nominated by others and it would be nice if the honor or the reward was nice enough to make it a real honor, lucrative or otherwise rewarding to receive.

I haven't put in for any logged dive awards either, but that's mostly because when I log dives I just put the place and date and how many dives I did. No other information. I write them down on scrap paper or on anything if I want to make a note. Lots are just deco schedules in my wetnotes. I like to see how many dives I've done as the year gets underway lately because I usually hit between 200 and 400 per year. Those are all kinds of dives and mostly teaching or diving for fun locally at Dutch Springs, in the Delaware and St. Lawrence Rivers, a few local ocean dives, etc. I've been fortunate enough to be doing this pretty much daily for about 7 months out of the year. I'm actually enjoying the time off concentrating on working out every day and not diving after a busy year.

However, I'll probably be putting in for awards in the future because my girlfriend hooked us up with a gig in which a logbook is required. I bought a generic logbook that had more spaces for information than nonsense and I started logging cave, trimix and memorable dives. I went all out adding maps of the Old Freetown System on Grand Bahama Island where I spent a couple months this past winter, the Devil's Eye and Ear at Ginnie Springs, and the wrecks of the Vickery, Keystorm and America in the St. Lawrence where the logbook gave spaces for maps. Heck, I even added stickers to pimp the cover! With all the work I'm putting into logging now, I'll want some sort of bling-bling!

I was supposed to be cave diving and wreck diving in Florida since November 11 (and adding cave dives to the pimped out logbook), but as I was driving down, my mother was in a car accident. She swerved to miss a deer and ended up rolling down an embankment in an isolated area. She was stuck in her Jeep about an hour and a half before she was able to find her cell phone, dial 911, and have firefighters locate and extract her. After being admitted, blood work showed either the possibility of a heart attack or bruising from the impact. I returned home, of course, despite my brother, his girlfriend and even my mom assuring me that I should go on the trip. Turns out that her heart isn't in the best shape right now and she's going to need us to make things easy on her for awhile so all my travel is pretty much postponed for a few weeks. My girlfriend is in Florida now and probably will be diving the Keys for the next couple of days. I'm only slightly envious. If she was cave diving ... OUCH! That would really hurt! My heart enzymes would probably be severely elevated!

Trace,

I like the idea of this. Obviously negative feedback to divers who are not being safe isn't working, maybe giving positive feedback to those who are doing good would be for the greater good.

-Tony

Well, I don't know about you guys, buy I am already rewarded for my diving practices by being allowed to continue to walk, breathe, pay taxes, and listen to my wife b**ch at me. Somehow over the last 35 or so years, I have considered this to be a great alternative to a long dirt nap, and a pretty good incentive to be cautious.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Well, I don't know about you guys, buy I am already rewarded for my diving practices by being allowed to continue to walk, breathe, pay taxes, and listen to my wife b**ch at me. Somehow over the last 35 or so years, I have considered this to be a great alternative to a long dirt nap, and a pretty good incentive to be cautious.

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I agree with John.. We don't need anymore "red tape". Cavern divers are taught the need for training, and anyone diving beyond their level are doing so at their own risk.

My instructor had a way of rewarding a safe attitude. It's called "not beating the crap out of us." :smt079

Attitude and discipline used to be prerequisites for technical training...

Well, I love the spirit of the idea... and although it may take the smallest amount of work on the agency's part, it's well worth it. HOWEVER, MOST of the same effect could be accomplished if we really, as a community, went out of our way to notice and COMMEND divers who are doing things right at the cavern or intro level etc . Specifically, walking up to a diver at the dive site and just giving an ATTABOY etc. Replace (some) of the ego driven rational to dive beyond your level and replace it with another ego driven rational of respect of peers and and those leading in the field.

In a conversation with Trace he had also mentioned that shops could make a note of who always comes back within thirds (based on the fill pressures that they are obviously already measuring) and extend the ATTABOY, or perhaps even an award. Elegant idea I think...

I'm not a fan of 'Big Government' and certainly not 'Big Brother', so 'official' stuff I am weary of in many instances, but behavioral conditioning to convince people to get the training through positive reinforcement, by any means available, has to be a priority; Awards are certainly a simple, tangible way to accomplish this.

Good call Trace. :clapper

Sorry, I respectfully disagree, I think this is one of those 'tough love' situations..., not resolved by the continuous throwing of accolades...

I'd just as soon have intro level done away with as 'certifications' as opposed to learners permits along the lines of learning to drive.... i.e. your only allowed behind the wheel w/ another licensed driver (full cave or instructor), and the responsibility\mentor-ship to hold you to those limitations.

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Originally Posted by netmage

Sorry, I respectfully disagree, I think this is one of those 'tough love' situations..., not resolved by the continuous throwing of accolades...

I'd just as soon have intro level done away with as 'certifications' as opposed to learners permits along the lines of learning to drive.... i.e. your only allowed behind the wheel w/ another licensed driver (full cave or instructor), and the responsibility\mentor-ship to hold you to those limitations.

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This kind of illustrates my point about the negative attitude towards divers who are learning the ropes ... er ... lines. Divers are pushed into full cave with the idea that somehow learning isn't worthy of respect and they don't matter until they've arrived and proved they can do full cave skills.

Prevalent attitudes:

Edit: profanity-laced diatribe deleted. To the poster: replacing one letter of a profanity with an asterisk does not change the spirit of the profanity. It is not allowed on this forum. - Russell

What you call a diatribe was humor, Russel, and was placed there with smiley faces to make people laugh and think. I really wish you just told me to clean up the S-word rather than delete those 10 typical attitudes undeniably present in cave country. Or ... does truth hurt the guilty?

Edit: PM sent - Russell

Just to be clear... I wasn't calling anyone ****.... but we do need to stay on message, completing full cave is the goal... yes, you can do alot of stuff at the intro\basic levels..., but jedi you are not, until training completed you have....

I'm just saying a more institutionalized/encouraged approach to mentoring should/would be far more beneficial to someone learning than yet another wakulla\abe davis like recognition...

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Originally Posted by netmage

Just to be clear... I wasn't calling anyone ****.... but we do need to stay on message, completing full cave is the goal... yes, you can do alot of stuff at the intro\basic levels..., but jedi you are not, until training completed you have....

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And to me this is the problem.

Do we tell OW divers that their "training isn't complete" until they become a dive master and finish trimix? Do we tell wreck divers they aren't complete until they dive the Doria?

Full Cave is NOT the goal. At least not for some of us. Not as the class currently stands. There is NOTHING in the Full Cave class that cannot be completed in the first 1000ft of some cave systems. But as set up, full cave is tailored to those looking to do longer and more complicated dives. Not everyone wants to go there.

Why can't we allow someone to explore a site like Indian without a full cave card? If someone has 1000 safe cave dives in various systems are they suddenly a crappy diver because they enter Indian? Or Cathedral, or Emerald, or whatever other restricted site you care to mention?

As long as the cave agencies restrict sites based on completing a cert level and not based on skill, then the attitude of belittling divers based on lower certs irrespective of skills or abilities, will continue. I think we are rewarding divers for the wrong things. And we seem to be amazed when divers with less than a year under their belt are scootering 4000ft into systems and earning the safe cave dive awards in 12-16 month times.

I could finish my full in December and have 100 dives done by June. And I'd barely have to leave the county to do it. Would that make me a much better or safer diver? I've spoken to both the CDS and NACD Presidents about this to some degree. But the fact remains, as long as the community chooses to limit or punish divers who have not achieved a cert level, rather than reward skills and attitudes, we will continue to see people doing crap they do.

Trace's idea of rewarding skill is a nice one. But unfortunately, it won't gain any traction. Not everyone wants a pat on the back for doing things in a safe manner. I certainly don't. I'd just like to be able to dive. As I told Cal Jamison, I helped construct the steps at Emerald, but I can't dive there. Not even in the OW, where FSU used to do OW cert dives. I live 30 minutes from Indian, and I can't even put my toe in the water.

Sadly, this is just the way things are.

netmage, i disagree. for *me*, a goal is full cave, but that's not true for everyone. many are satisfied with cavern or basic/intro. hell, i would be too if it weren't for the 'no doubles at ginnie / 1/6' rules.

and i don't think full makes you a jedi automatically.

though i agree about the mentoring! that *would* be better, but with few exceptions, most full folks don't go out of their way to be available for it. (thank you, jean & bobby & jason & bob, for being there for me.)

trace, i like it. i think the 'prize' should be cover admission to and maybe some help with travel and lodging for the annual convention(s) where it would be given. and maybe a guided dive. i think it should be open for anyone with any cert from nacd/gui/nss-cds/tdi/any i missed except padi because i've seen one of their cavern classes and just...no. i think the candidates should be nominated, and that anyone can nominate - instructors, tank monkeys, regular ol' buddies. i don't know about actual selection - might be hard for a committee who might not know every candidate, and i'd hate to see it be a 'who you know' kinda thing. maybe every nominee submit a paragraph responding to questions? maybe every nominee is secretly videoed? that's tricky, either way. maybe every nominator has to get a certain number of agreeing signatures? maybe *every* nominee who satisfies the requirements gets the award?

human nature - we'll strive for reward harder than we'll work to avoid punishment.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

And to me this is the problem.

Do we tell OW divers that their "training isn't complete" until they become a dive master and finish trimix? Do we tell wreck divers they aren't complete until they dive the Doria?

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Your mixing examples...

If you want to dive the Doria, a DM cert is irrelevant... Trimix would certainly be advised by the community, tho, nothing is to stop you from buying your own boat and diving it on air.... just like the community is advocating cave training..., yet there is nothing from stopping an OW diver from pulling up a canoe and go dive Ginnie on their own...

If you want to dive in a cave, then cave diver certification should be the goal..... cavern, intro\basic, apprentice are simply stepping stones to that end... a way to break the training progression into manageable and experience building chunks...

If that's as far as you wanna take it - that's fine, but don't come complaining about the limitations posed by landowners and property managers for site access....

ps. my jedi reference was there to fit the training quote - not that full cave = elite ******

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Originally Posted by netmage

Your mixing examples...

If you want to dive the Doria, a DM cert is irrelevant... Trimix would certainly be advised by the community, tho, nothing is to stop you from buying your own boat and diving it on air.... just like the community is advocating cave training..., yet there is nothing from stopping an OW diver from pulling up a canoe and go dive Ginnie on their own...

If you want to dive in a cave, then cave diver certification should be the goal..... cavern, intro\basic, apprentice are simply stepping stones to that end... a way to break the training progression into manageable and experience building chunks...

If that's as far as you wanna take it - that's fine, but don't come complaining about the limitations posed by landowners and property managers for site access....

ps. my jedi reference was there to fit the training quote - not that full cave = elite bad a** mofo....

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I think the point that Perrone is trying to make is that a full cave card isn't the end that defines a "fully trained cave diver". Like any other certificiation, full cave is a license to learn. You don't wake up after your last day of training suddenly prepared to tackle any dive that you can swim on back gas. Just like you don't walk away from a trimix cert ready to dive the doria.

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Originally Posted by netmage

ps. my jedi reference was there to fit the training quote - not that full cave = elite ********

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Oh, sure! You didn't get your post edited and deleted because you changed 2 letters and then went ebonic. I see how the game is played now! :)

No, I'm a schoolteacher and lunch was over. I was starting to edit his post when the bell rang. - Russell

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

I think the point that Perrone is trying to make is that a full cave card isn't the end that defines a "fully trained cave diver". Like any other certificiation, full cave is a license to learn. You don't wake up after your last day of training suddenly prepared to tackle any dive that you can swim on back gas. Just like you don't walk away from a trimix cert ready to dive the doria.

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No; Peronne is advocating letting people do basic or intro and call it a day, and get full access to any and all publicly accessible sites...... so long as we trust them to stick to the limitations defined by their certification level\standard.... cuz like that's clearly been working...

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Originally Posted by netmage

If you want to dive in a cave, then cave diver certification should be the goal..... cavern, intro\basic, apprentice are simply stepping stones to that end... a way to break the training progression into manageable and experience building chunks...

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Maybe you're right. And maybe those without a full cave cert deserve to be pissed on by the community. Fine by me. I do the dives I want to do, and I am comfortable where I am.

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Originally Posted by netmage

If that's as far as you wanna take it - that's fine, but don't come complaining about the limitations posed by landowners and property managers for site access....

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I don't complain. Frankly, I could care less. I just find the irony interesting and worth pointing out. I have plenty of access to sites both public and private to keep me happy. The fact remains that our community has little interest in rewarding divers who do things right, and far more interest in slamming those who do stuff wrong. I've just come to accept this is the way things are.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

But as set up, full cave is tailored to those looking to do longer and more complicated dives. Not everyone wants to go there.

Why can't we allow someone to explore a site like Indian without a full cave card? If someone has 1000 safe cave dives in various systems are they suddenly a crappy diver because they enter Indian? Or Cathedral, or Emerald, or whatever other restricted site you care to mention?

I could finish my full in December and have 100 dives done by June. And I'd barely have to leave the county to do it. Would that make me a much better or safer diver?

I live 30 minutes from Indian, and I can't even put my toe in the water.

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Perrone, my friend, did you run out of your medication again?

1st, as you well know, the restrictions at Emerald and Indian were negotiated with the LAND OWNERS, over a long period of time. There were compromises made, that I dont like, however it was better than having the sites closed for years.

2nd, I would not lie to you, Indian is one of those longer and more complicated dives that not everybody wants to do. And if you call me, I will take you over there and let you wet your toes, and maybe all the way up to your ass.

And yes Perrone, if you actually went out and did 100 cave dives by next June, that would make you a better and safer diver. Any of you, the more chance you get to practice, the better you get.

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Originally Posted by netmage

No; Peronne is advocating letting people do basic or intro and call it a day, and get full access to any and all publicly accessible sites...... so long as we trust them to stick to the limitations defined by their certification level\standard.... cuz like that's clearly been working...

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No, in fact I am advocating we stop certifying divers who show no regard for themselves, their dive buddies, their families, the caves, or anything else. Regardless of their cert level. Unfortunately, there seem to be an abundance of these people with the money and time to work their way through the current certification process and get access to sites where they can lay in the silt, write in the clay banks, ram their scooters into the mud, and get themselves killed in places that are strictly off-limits to plebes with Intro cards.

So maybe that is working better...

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

And maybe those without a full cave cert deserve to be pissed on by the community.

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How so....?

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Perrone, my friend, did you run out of your medication again?

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Yea, I must have forgotten to take them today. I'm an idiot. Just ignore me.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

No, in fact I am advocating we stop certifying divers who show no regard for themselves, their dive buddies, their families, the caves, or anything else. Regardless of their cert level. Unfortunately, there seem to be an abundance of these people with the money and time to work their way through the current certification process and get access to sites where they can lay in the silt, write in the clay banks, ram their scooters into the mud, and get themselves killed in places that are strictly off-limits to plebes with Intro cards.

So maybe that is working better...

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While I agree 100%, I don't see how this pertains to the topic at hand....?

The only way to take someone's card away is to have them expire.....
The only way to raise the bar, is to do just that..... and hold instructors accountable for the actions of their students\graduates

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Originally Posted by netmage

No; Peronne is advocating letting people do basic or intro and call it a day, and get full access to any and all publicly accessible sites...... so long as we trust them to stick to the limitations defined by their certification level\standard.... cuz like that's clearly been working...

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Ah, I misunderstood. Isn't the NSS-CDS addressing this as of recently? One of my friends just finished basic and it is essentially a provisional cert and expires in 18 months I believe. And I thought Apprentice was only valid for 12 months?

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

Ah, I misunderstood. Isn't the NSS-CDS addressing this as of recently? One of my friends just finished basic and it is essentially a provisional cert and expires in 18 months I believe. And I thought Apprentice was only valid for 12 months?

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So the idea being, that a diver who is interested in doing simple cave dives loses their certification every 12-18 months and must re-up? The divers that take the responsibility and say, "this is far enough for me." are being told that they must either complete their training to a level they are not comfortable with or interested in, or risk losing certification at the level they actually want...

Interesting idea.

Geez, Net, I thought we'd have some sort of Socratic debate. I had no idea this would turn into such a brawl among cave divers. :D

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Originally Posted by netmage

The only way to take someone's card away is to have them expire.....
The only way to raise the bar, is to do just that..... and hold instructors accountable for the actions of their students\graduates

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Yeah, but I have a problem with this idea too. Any instructor can do an outstounding job and produce superior students. And then it only takes one bonehead for the instructor to get slammed? That hardly seems fair. Sounds exactly the way the idiot beuracrats have destroyed the military. Today, if some nuckle-head private uses his lighter to check the fuel level in a fuel tanker and gets himself burnt like a marshmellow (yes, it just happened AGAIN, recently) it's automatically his leaderships fault. Moral is lowered and careers end becuase one person, depsite all thier training, all the warnings, is deep down an idiot.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

So the idea being, that a diver who is interested in doing simple cave dives loses their certification every 12-18 months and must re-up? The divers that take the responsibility and say, "this is far enough for me." are being told that they must either complete their training to a level they are not comfortable with or interested in, or risk losing certification at the level they actually want...

Interesting idea.

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No, I think the idea is to acknowledge that cave training is intended to be progressive and to encourage divers to complete their training. Basic Cave was not intended to be an end state, just a stepping stone. Once you get full cave, you can dive as conservatively as you like, at the depths and penetrations you like, and you will be better prepared to do those dives. I'm sure if your instructor understood your goals, they would be happy to work within your boundaries as long as it does not compromise the integrity of the class.

Just to clarify, my idea was to reward someone who epitomizes what people are already supposed to be doing -- diving safely and advancing when ready and able. But, this would be sort of the congeniality award for a member of the community who sets the example for safety and community spirit regardless of the rating that diver holds at the moment.

I'm not talking about giving something to everyone who dives safely, but just one outstanding example, a little thank you from all of us for being everything a cave diver or up and coming cave diver should be and just a little public PR in the diving world.

Didn't mean to cause such an uproar. I just thought it would be nice to reward someone for team spirit who may or may not ever become an MVP.

No good deed ...

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

Geez, Net, I thought we'd have some sort of Socratic debate. I had no idea this would turn into such a brawl among cave divers. :D

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I mean, what'd you expect? Print off some 'I got caught doing something good" stickers just like in the 6th grade... We'll give a stack to Bob and have him slap 'em on the cars of divers fighting the good fight at Ginnie, Peacock and Little River and doing what their supposed to.... they will be green....

The red ones just say "I'm an accident waiting to happen"

Lets see how this experiment works....

Accidents and fatalities of this nature fall into two categories...
a> Didn't know better...
- or -
b> Thought the rules didn't apply to them...

"A" is addressed thru education, training, community outreach, site access guidelines.
"B" is addressed thru education, reminders, accident analysis, and attitude screening during training. Instructors have to have the desire and ability to fail a student if they feel they have an unsafe attitude.

I'm not clear how positive reinforcement addresses either scenario... More rules aren't going to stop the people breaking the existing rules...

cave diver of the month award?
:)

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

No, I think the idea is to acknowledge that cave training is intended to be progressive and to encourage divers to complete their training. Basic Cave was not intended to be an end state, just a stepping stone. Once you get full cave, you can dive as conservatively as you like, at the depths and penetrations you like, and you will be better prepared to do those dives. I'm sure if your instructor understood your goals, they would be happy to work within your boundaries as long as it does not compromise the integrity of the class.

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So unless you are full cave, you are unwelcome in the caves. Fair enough. So let's do away with the stepping stones. I took full cave when I did my class. All 8 days including a day of rest to go help build steps at Emerald. I didn't pass full cave because with my SAC rate at the time, I could not complete the circuit at Peacock. I could easily do it now, but have chosen to simply dive to my comfort level, within my limits.

My instructor understood my desires, and was quite happy to let me do what I am doing. We dive together a couple times a year, and he evaluates my skills. He is encouraging me to finish up my training, and I keep resisting. Maybe I should stop pushing rocks uphill and just take the training and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

So unless you are full cave, you are unwelcome in the caves. Fair enough. So let's do away with the stepping stones. I took full cave when I did my class. All 8 days including a day of rest to go help build steps at Emerald. I didn't pass full cave because with my SAC rate at the time, I could not complete the circuit at Peacock. I could easily do it now, but have chosen to simply dive to my comfort level, within my limits.

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Where do you come up with this...?

I took about a year to go from NAUI Cave 1 -> NACD Full Cave... at least a weekend trip a month. I did plenty of diving and was welcome everywhere I went; Peacock, Ginnie, Little River, Madison, Telford...

-Tim

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Originally Posted by netmage

Where do you come up with this...?

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I come up with this based on the proposed idea of expiring the basic cave cert. Essentially, we seem to be saying that unless you are prepared to continue on to full cave, your are not welcome in the caves. Perhaps your read on it is different. To me, this reads more like licensure than certification. My driver's license expires. When it does, I am no longer welcome on the roads. None of my certifications expire whether they be in my profession or otherwise. No one tells me that my Microsoft Exchange Admin certs expire if I don't follow on to become an MCSE. The value of my current training and experience does not become void if I don't push further.

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I took about a year to go from NAUI Cave 1 -> NACD Full Cave... at least a weekend trip a month. I did plenty of diving and was welcome everywhere I went; Peacock, Ginnie, Little River, Madison, Telford...

-Tim

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Tim, I respect your path, but frankly, I don't know if I would choose the same one. I'm glad yours has worked out well for you.

Don Kearns spoke at the NACD conference this weekend and some of what he talked about is valid here. He started in the late 60's diving with Sheck and others. However, at a point in time he stopped diving. In 1999 he decided to get recertified -- rather than just going back to business as usual. This is a GREAT example of personal responsibility and self-policing. My point, Perrone, is that why do we have to rely on agencies to do this for us? Why is it not possible to do this personally and as a community?

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Originally Posted by FW

I agree with John.. We don't need anymore "red tape". Cavern divers are taught the need for training, and anyone diving beyond their level are doing so at their own risk.

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Also, over time, it will just be another click that buddies will allow other buddies to work around the system.

Sorry for being negative, but I believe I'm being a realist.

We have a system in place now (Abe Davis, etc.) and people that want to, consistently find a way to sidestep it. There is no reason to believe a new "system", given enought time, will not be worked exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

Don Kearns spoke at the NACD conference this weekend and some of what he talked about is valid here. He started in the late 60's diving with Sheck and others. However, at a point in time he stopped diving. In 1999 he decided to get recertified -- rather than just going back to business as usual. This is a GREAT example of personal responsibility and self-policing. My point, Perrone, is that why do we have to rely on agencies to do this for us? Why is it not possible to do this personally and as a community?

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Don gave that presentation to our dive club a few months ago. And you're right. A lot of it is valid here.

I am in no way saying that the agencies should be responsible for this. All I am saying is that if we want to make the diver responsible for their own safety and well being, then why tell diver X, that because he took 3 less days of class, that he cannot dive to a certain spot in a cave, whereas diver Y can. Even if the spot in question is within the training limits of both divers. Even worse, why tell diver X that although you had the skills and safe attitude to explore to 1000ft last month, your card is now expired so you must retake your 3 day course for $500 so you can dive to this same spot again. Does this really seem intelligent to anyone?

If an agency issues a cave cert, and expires it on lack of keeping up skills, I have zero problem with that. I self-police doing this. I sat out most of 2008, and got an invite to do a short cave dive in September. I refused. Got in the pool, then did a couple OW dives. I still haven't been back in an overhead. I don't need an agency to tell me to brush up before taking on a cave dive. My personal comfort level does the job. Some people seem to not feel that way.

Damn. outta popcorn. You guys hold up with the posts till I get back from the kitchen popping some more. This is gettin good.

Anybody else out there in cyberspace enjoying the thread from the sidelines? If so, can I have one of your beers? I just finished my last one.

but, deepsea, the agencies *do* do this for us. i think that's part of what perrone's saying. cave is seen as the end point. even if you only want to do basic/intro dives, you need to go further to dive doubles at ginnie or go beyond sixths or dive places that require an abe davis. those are the rules the agencies have set up (for the most part, i know some are slightly different).

Maybe we can start rewarding instructors who take the time to really teach a student. No more "Get you full cave certification in 8 days". I know we have some really good instructors out there, but can one really learn and have the experience needed to be a safe cave diver. Maybe this would weed out some of the folks out there who want to become zero to hero.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

So unless you are full cave, you are unwelcome in the caves. Fair enough. So let's do away with the stepping stones. I took full cave when I did my class. All 8 days including a day of rest to go help build steps at Emerald. I didn't pass full cave because with my SAC rate at the time, I could not complete the circuit at Peacock. I could easily do it now, but have chosen to simply dive to my comfort level, within my limits.

My instructor understood my desires, and was quite happy to let me do what I am doing. We dive together a couple times a year, and he evaluates my skills. He is encouraging me to finish up my training, and I keep resisting. Maybe I should stop pushing rocks uphill and just take the training and be done with it.

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That's not what I mean at all. And how did you get that I want to get rid of the stepping stones? I think they are absolutely necessary, but I also think it is important to reinforce the message that an "intro" cert is just that; an introduction to what lies ahead in your training. Have been through the 8 day course yourself, I am sure you can appreciate the value in progressing gradually through the system as your skills develop. But I think a "full" cave diver is better prepared to conduct any cave dive, regardless of the penetration or what lines you are traveling along.

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Originally Posted by netmage

Attitude and discipline used to be prerequisites for technical training...

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You don't think this is easy to fake? Show the right attitude and discipline for 8 days. Tell your instructor you will follow all the rules and be conservative. Then the first day out of class leave the primary reel in the truck and break 1/3s to make your goal.

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

That's not what I mean at all. And how did you get that I want to get rid of the stepping stones?

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I didn't say you wanted to get rid of them. However, the prevailing thought seems to be that they are essentially worthless unless you progress on to full cave.

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

but I also think it is important to reinforce the message that an "intro" cert is just that; an introduction to what lies ahead in your training.

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I disagree. Nothing has to "lie ahead" in my training. It should certainly be up to the diver whether or not they choose to pursue further training. And as such, if the basic/intro cert cannot stand on it's own, or be valued on it's own, then it should be eliminated.

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

Have been through the 8 day course yourself, I am sure you can appreciate the value in progressing gradually through the system as your skills develop.

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This of course assumes that one WANTS to progress through the system. On most days I am perfectly happy to explore the cavern area. In fact, some of my most enjoyable dives have just been puttering about in the cavern with friends. There is no stress, no significant gas concerns, etc. It's so refreshing to do that. I have absolutely ZERO desire to progress pass 2000ft in ANY cave anywhere in the world. As I told my instructor a couple of days ago. Right now 1500ft is my personal limit on penetration.

I can certainly appreciate that MY desires are not common and thus we can't extrapolate them to everyone. However, I will disagree that the idea of taking the full cave course should be the goal of everyone who pursues cave training.

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

But I think a "full" cave diver is better prepared to conduct any cave dive, regardless of the penetration or what lines you are traveling along.

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This may well be true. Just as a mechanical engineer may well be more prepared to do basic algebra than an algebra student. But not everyone who studies math wants to be an engineer. And tey should be marginalized for not wanting to pursue that path. What I don't understand is why some people cannot accept that not everyone wants to go further in the caves. Not everyone wants to leave the main line. Not everyone wants to push limits.

I have a host of hobbies. I enjoy golf, but I am not interested in trying to get to a single digit handicap. I enjoy videography, but I don't want to shoot for Natl. Geo. I enjoy climbing, but I am not going to scale everest. And I enjoy cave diving, but I am not going to be adding virgin line anywhere. These things are not goals for me. And I suspect they are not goals for countless others. Some people just enjoy a casual swim up the mainline taking in the beauty and splendor of underwater caves. And if you are going to try to convince me that I need a full cave cert to swim 1500ft up the mainline of most of our tourist caves, you've got your work cut out for you.

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Originally Posted by RN

You don't think this is easy to fake? Show the right attitude and discipline for 8 days. Tell your instructor you will follow all the rules and be conservative. Then the first day out of class leave the primary reel in the truck and break 1/3s to make your goal.

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I agree, and I'd say this is why zero-> hero classes are a bad idea... you can impart the knowledge to be a cave diver, but its certainly not enough time to establish the wisdom to make a great one...

Thats why my suggestions and comments have focused around mentoring....

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

I have a host of hobbies. I enjoy golf, but I am not interested in trying to get to a single digit handicap. I enjoy videography, but I don't want to shoot for Natl. Geo. I enjoy climbing, but I am not going to scale everest. And I enjoy cave diving, but I am not going to be adding virgin line anywhere. These things are not goals for me. And I suspect they are not goals for countless others. Some people just enjoy a casual swim up the mainline taking in the beauty and splendor of underwater caves. And if you are going to try to convince me that I need a full cave cert to swim 1500ft up the mainline of most of our tourist caves, you've got your work cut out for you.

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I'm not telling you need to be full cave to swim the mainline. I'm saying that you will be better equiped to do it. I think we just need to agree to disagree on this one.

Just an update. Rather than reward good behavior I think we've decided to use code reds and violence against bad behavior.

Reminds me of an RSTC meeting.

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Originally Posted by RN

You don't think this is easy to fake? Show the right attitude and discipline for 8 days. Tell your instructor you will follow all the rules and be conservative. Then the first day out of class leave the primary reel in the truck and break 1/3s to make your goal.

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I'm sure a lot of us have been duped by people who display conservative attitudes. I know I have.

"full" cave should not be the goal of an open water diver. Cavern should be the goal of an open water diver. I took cavern/intro thinking I might fail them both. I just wanted to try my best, get a taste of what it was all about. I had no intention of ever moving on to apprentice and full until after I took the first two classes...and boy did I have a lot of work to do to get ready for them.

What is wrong with just taking a cavern/intro/basic class and stopping there? I think for people who really are going to stay in their limitations, don't necessarily live close to cave country, and want to apply the skills to different sects of diving this is a great option. Being pressured into apprentice and cave can lead to inexperienced divers who are "qualified" to do traverses, circuits, etc.

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

Rather than reward good behavior I think we've decided to use code reds and violence against bad behavior.

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Best idea so far! :clapper

~Jeff

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Originally Posted by EGIB

I'm sure a lot of us have been duped by people who display conservative attitudes. I know I have.

"full" cave should not be the goal of an open water diver. Cavern should be the goal of an open water diver. I took cavern/intro thinking I might fail them both. I just wanted to try my best, get a taste of what it was all about. I had no intention of ever moving on to apprentice and full until after I took the first two classes...and boy did I have a lot of work to do to get ready for them.

What is wrong with just taking a cavern/intro/basic class and stopping there? I think for people who really are going to stay in their limitations, don't necessarily live close to cave country, and want to apply the skills to different sects of diving this is a great option. Being pressured into apprentice and cave can lead to inexperienced divers who are "qualified" to do traverses, circuits, etc.

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I don't disagree, but I would add that any well defined system of graduating steps will always be challenged by those who don't fit the mold - eg. Cavern/Intro/App/Full.

There are people who enter cavern that have never touched a reel or been in doubles.

There are also people who are Adv Nitrox/Deco, been diving doubles in a Hog setup for a good while, and are very comfortable with a reel.

The term zero-to-hero has a negative connotation not for the word Hero, but for the Zero. Assuming that everyone who goes through an 8-day program started as Zero is inaccurate at best. Some definitely are, and some are not...

And therein lies the answer to most of this - The instructor's discretion to accept, train and pass an individual based on the instructors experience with that student.

I believe no matter the cert system, the instructors need to be willing to say "no".

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Originally Posted by brockbr

The term zero-to-hero has a negative connotation not for the word Hero, but for the Zero. Assuming that everyone who goes through an 8-day program started as Zero is inaccurate at best. Some definitely are, and some are not...

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But we've already established that unless you are full cave, you ARE a zero. Thus the idea that there are no safe diving rewards available for anything but full cavers, the idea of expiring your overhead cards to move you back to cavern unless you progress through full cave, etc.

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Originally Posted by brockbr

I don't disagree, but I would add that any well defined system of graduating steps will always be challenged by those who don't fit the mold - eg. Cavern/Intro/App/Full.

There are people who enter cavern that have never touched a reel or been in doubles.

There are also people who are Adv Nitrox/Deco, been diving doubles in a Hog setup for a good while, and are very comfortable with a reel.

The term zero-to-hero has a negative connotation not for the word Hero, but for the Zero. Assuming that everyone who goes through an 8-day program started as Zero is inaccurate at best. Some definitely are, and some are not...

And therein lies the answer to most of this - The instructor's discretion to accept, train and pass an individual based on the instructors experience with that student.

I believe no matter the cert system, the instructors need to be willing to say "no".

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Good post.

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Originally Posted by brockbr

I believe no matter the cert system, the instructors need to be willing to say "no".

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Very good point. Not picking on any instructors in particular, but I have seen a lot of cases where I wonder if they just wanted the money or to be done with the student. Everyone makes mistakes, including instructors.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

But we've already established that unless you are full cave, you ARE a zero. Thus the idea that there are no safe diving rewards available for anything but full cavers, the idea of expiring your overhead cards to move you back to cavern unless you progress through full cave, etc.

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I know that post is slathered with sarcasm :D I, for one, don't subscribe to the "Non-FullCaver==Zero" mentality. You know who trained me, so you should also know that I read most of your posts and fully "get it" ;)

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Originally Posted by brockbr

I don't disagree, but I would add that any well defined system of graduating steps will always be challenged by those who don't fit the mold - eg. Cavern/Intro/App/Full.

There are people who enter cavern that have never touched a reel or been in doubles.

There are also people who are Adv Nitrox/Deco, been diving doubles in a Hog setup for a good while, and are very comfortable with a reel.

The term zero-to-hero has a negative connotation not for the word Hero, but for the Zero. Assuming that everyone who goes through an 8-day program started as Zero is inaccurate at best. Some definitely are, and some are not...

And therein lies the answer to most of this - The instructor's discretion to accept, train and pass an individual based on the instructors experience with that student.

I believe no matter the cert system, the instructors need to be willing to say "no".

---

You gave a good point to the fact that divers come into a cave class with prior experience which we often forget to think about when we stereotype a cavern/intro student.

There is something that I really wanted to point out, though, in hindsight.

I trained a group of divers who had been PADI OW for a PDIC AOW class. I started them in backplates and wings with long hose primaries and I took the time in their skills evaluation and update dives to run a mini GUE-F style training segment focusing on trim, buoyancy, propulsion and critical skills. These essential skills were to be worked on throughout their AOW course including diving as a team.

They opted to take a 25+ dive training track in which we would combine AOW with a series of applicable specialties. This was something I had been doing on my own before I went to an SDI/TDI instructor crossover course I was surprised to see that an agency had implemented such a track themselves as part of their advanced training rather than just a 5 or so dive AOW course.

Anyway, we covered the PDIC advanced skills of navigation, search & recovery, rescue, night diving, deep diving and boat diving and they did the course in doubles so they learned valve drills. I added a night diving specialty in which their level of difficulty increased from their first night of just light failures and out of gas emergencies at night in their AOW night dive to multiple failures and emergencies at night. We increased the level of difficulty from their deep dive in AOW (PDIC simulates deco diving in AOW) in which they had to manage an OOG and hold stops in midwater to a deep specialty which culminated with a double no-mask OOG DSMB deployment and having them make stops based on touch contact and knots on the line counting out their deco timing in their heads. We did nitrox in which they were subjected to an unforgiving MOD and tight window and refined their reel work with primary tie-off's secondary tie-off's placements, wraps, end ties and emergencies on the line.

We went to North Carolina and did their wreck specialty employing all prior techniques, etc. By the end of PDIC AOW and several PDIC specialties in which we finally ended up with 40+ dives IIRC, these guys were really solid!

They spent a season doing local NY/NJ shipwreck diving and then one guy decided to take cave training and did a "zero to hero" NSS-CDS course and then an IANTD trimix course. His friend caught up to him with cave training and they were skilled divers when it came to unified teamwork, lines, emergency scenarios etc. Not only that they became two of my most beloved friends in the process. They began staging and scootering and one guy was looking to always wall out caves and push and push because he had the heart of an explorer and wanted to go where no one had gone before.

But, one day, we went to Ginnie Springs and my friend who has done Eagle's Nest and other deep cave dives swam straight down the bore of the flow with a video camera. I was dumbfounded, as I pulled along the ceiling of the cave looking for used handholds and using the contours of the walls as help and shelter, to see him struggling in the flow in the middle of the tunnel all the way to the Lips where he clipped his video camera to the line in a state of fatigue. I could only imagine the CO2 headache he must have had! After the dive, we talked about strategies for moving into Ginnie, taking one's time, relaxing, controlling respiration and moving so that you don't wear yourself out, induce CO2, etc. He had no clue!

If he had spent some time at the Intro to Cave level, he would have been held back from big pushes into the caves and he would have learned the nuances of various systems, the best ways to get into them, and the art of swimming. Because he had the skills to complete full cave, he cheated himself out of the "wax on wax off" of cave diving & went right to the art of the scooter.

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

If he had spent some time at the Intro to Cave level, he would have been held back from big pushes into the caves and he would have learned the nuances of various systems, the best ways to get into them, and the art of swimming. Because he had the skills to complete full cave, he cheated himself out of the "wax on wax off" of cave diving & went right to the art of the scooter.

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Good post, and agreed - The experience comes from learning those nuances and repetition.

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Originally Posted by brockbr

Good post, and agreed - The experience comes from learning those nuances and repetition.

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When I took classes with Chris Wright through NACD, he wanted me to be able to describe in detail at least 5 cave systems (2 high flow/2 low flow + 1 elective) at the Intro level, the location of the lines, the layout of the mainline tunnel, where the jumps were located, etc., before I could go on to Apprentice.

Knowing there would be a test later, I started to really pay attention during my fun and experience dives after my Intro course to everything I could. Huge help!

Of all my instructors in all disciplines of diving, he was the one who made me think the hardest and demanded the most of my brain.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

But we've already established that unless you are full cave, you ARE a zero. Thus the idea that there are no safe diving rewards available for anything but full cavers, the idea of expiring your overhead cards to move you back to cavern unless you progress through full cave, etc.

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Peronne, you KNEW the conditions associated with your certification the first night of class. You knew it during your cavern class, and made a personal decision to go ahead with the training. You have made a personal decision to discontinue your training. You agreed with the provisions of the program, and spent your time and money to proceed to the point you are at. All of the safe cave diving awards are many years old, and you know what they are. You are demonstrating the exact type of lack of personal responsability that we have been discussing. Your situation is all you, and your decisions. It's time to stop this. The only zero here is the chance you have of getting any agency of changing their standards because of your complaining. If you don't like it, finish your training, or at least, stop whining.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

But we've already established that unless you are full cave, you ARE a zero. Thus the idea that there are no safe diving rewards available for anything but full cavers, the idea of expiring your overhead cards to move you back to cavern unless you progress through full cave, etc.

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While I did suggest expiring a card, I did NOT specify back to zero...
In my opinion, the GUE approach to allow a renewable card is quite adequate... If you don't use it... you loose it... Its up to you to demonstrate to an instructor that you still have the attitude to continue in the overhead; and I'm not suggesting this take the form of a class... a simple logbook review and/or chat... And yea, there is nothing to prevent someone from forging any of this... Read my intent..., not the letter...

-Tim

Just a quick observation....

How many GUE certified divers have "gone in over their head" and died from it?

:flame2

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Peronne, you KNEW the conditions associated with your certification the first night of class. You knew it during your cavern class, and made a personal decision to go ahead with the training. You have made a personal decision to discontinue your training. You agreed with the provisions of the program, and spent your time and money to proceed to the point you are at. All of the safe cave diving awards are many years old, and you know what they are. You are demonstrating the exact type of lack of personal responsability that we have been discussing. Your situation is all you, and your decisions. It's time to stop this. The only zero here is the chance you have of getting any agency of changing their standards because of your complaining. If you don't like it, finish your training, or at least, stop whining.

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Look man. I am NOT whining. I merely entered a discussion in which I had an opinion. If that bugs you, so sorry.

I resent the fact that you think I am shirking personal responsibility. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Frankly, I don't care if I get pats on the back. I don't care if the agencies change the way they do business. I could give a rat's ass about any of it.

What I *DO* care about is the hypocrisy of the agencies supposedly discouraging goal oriented diving, and then setting up the entire training structure and community recognition programs around goal oriented achievement. Let's cut the BS and call it what it is. Essentially, until you earn full cave, you don't really count. Your opinions don't matter, your safe diving record doesn't matter, your desire to access local caves don't matter, and your issues don't matter.

The message is, "Finish your training, and then we can hear you."

So that's the last you'll hear from me on the matter. My "whining" is over. That work for you?

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

...

What I *DO* care about is the hypocrisy of the agencies supposedly discouraging goal oriented diving, and then setting up the entire training structure and community recognition programs around goal oriented achievement. Let's cut the BS and call it what it is. Essentially, until you earn full cave, you don't really count. Your opinions don't matter, your safe diving record doesn't matter, your desire to access local caves don't matter, and your issues don't matter.

The message is, "Finish your training, and then we can hear you."

.....

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Divers who are full cave trained have a lot more experience in addition to their training and thus I would value their opinions more than a new cavern diver.

http://kal3b.com/images/star-trek-ca...al-posters.jpg

Do they make these for cave diving?

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

Divers who are full cave trained have a lot more experience in addition to their training and thus I would value their opinions more than a new cavern diver.

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I think you're making a lot of assumptions here. Including the one that full cave divers have a lot of experience. If desired, a diver could go from no overhead experience to full cave (depending on skill) in a week's time or so. Their experience would pale in comparison to someone who'd been diving overheads regularly for 5 or 10 years regardless of what card they held.

But if comparing them to a new cavern diver then yes, you're assertion is correct.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

I think you're making a lot of assumptions here. Including the one that full cave divers have a lot of experience. If desired, a diver could go from no overhead experience to full cave (depending on skill) in a week's time or so. Their experience would pale in comparison to someone who'd been diving overheads regularly for 5 or 10 years regardless of what card they held.

......

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Hmmmmm.... You are of course right.

My wife by choice stopped her training at the Intro level and she is an excellent diver.

I would value her opinions more than a newly certified full cave diver's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

What I *DO* care about is the hypocrisy of the agencies supposedly discouraging goal oriented diving, and then setting up the entire training structure and community recognition programs around goal oriented achievement. Let's cut the BS and call it what it is. Essentially, until you earn full cave, you don't really count. Your opinions don't matter, your safe diving record doesn't matter, your desire to access local caves don't matter, and your issues don't matter.

The message is, "Finish your training, and then we can hear you."

So that's the last you'll hear from me on the matter. My "whining" is over. That work for you?

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Huh - sounds like:

getting a driver's license

Getting a degree in any professional area

becoming a doctor

getting a pilot's license

Becoming a plumber

Becoming a soldier

Hell, becoming just about anything worth becoming.

How have you gotten through life so far? And if you can't make the frankly pretty minimalist standards to pass full cave why SHOULD we listen to you?

I'm with OFG - stop whining.

Why there are multi levels in cave training:

For those who don't already know, I was the first NSS-CDS Training Chairman.

Up until the NSS-CDS started training, there was only one level of cave training. The worst part was that you couldn't even sign up for the course, unless you could show logged dives in a cave. You also had to *own* all your gear, pretty expensive as you all know.

A *lot* of guys were dying in caves, because they had no cave training at all. Sheck Exley came up with the idea of the Cavern course. The idea was to get OW divers the information they needed to stay alive, and then they could decide if they really wanted to become full cave divers.

After the first year of Cavern training, the manager of Ginnie asked the NSS-CDS to have a third level so single tank divers could go back to the Lips. That level was first called Basic, then changed to Intro.

The problem arose that when switching to doubles, a lot of students needed more time to finish "full" cave, so Apprentice was added. A lot of guys didn't go on to finish, so were considered "loose cannons", so the time limit was introduced.

It isn't so much that anyone "looks down" on Cavern through Apprentice, but even the casual observer has to admit that someone only partially trained isn't fully trained, and could be a hazard to themselves, or others.

The way I look at it is, anyone with less than "full" Cave is still learning, but like any student should be respected for going on with their training.
FWIW, I will dive with any level diver.

The sad part is, in spite of all that training, egos still get in the way, and some divers still think they are invulnerable. I really hate to see trained cave divers get into trouble. It makes me wonder if it was all worth it :smt086

I still agree with OFG-1, your *ONLY* reward is learning enough to stay alive.

Thanks for the perspective Forest.

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Originally Posted by FW

......................The way I look at it is, anyone with less than "full" Cave is still learning, but like any student should be respected for going on with their training.

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Forrest, I agree with everything you said, to this point. I would like to add that you don't stop learning after receiving full cave. One of my geology professors was fond of saying that the best geologists were the ones that had seen the most geology. The same holds true in cave diving; every cave is different and every dive should be viewed as a learning opportunity. You never stop learning.

As far as experience is concerned 200 dives in Ginnie do not compare AT ALL to 200 dives spread around 50 different caves.

Jerry

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Originally Posted by FW

Why there are multi levels in cave training:

The problem arose that when switching to doubles, a lot of students needed more time to finish "full" cave, so Apprentice was added. A lot of guys didn't go on to finish, so were considered "loose cannons", so the time limit was introduced.

It isn't so much that anyone "looks down" on Cavern through Apprentice, but even the casual observer has to admit that someone only partially trained isn't fully trained, and could be a hazard to themselves, or others.

---

I think I understand the two perspectives better after reading this.

The first perspective stems from the knowledge of how cave training used to be conducted. Those with the idea in mind that to be a true "cave" diver at any level you need to demonstrate the intellectual, emotional and physical skills to be good enough to complete full cave training and unless you've completed this level you are still a student.

The second perspective is that since the levels Cavern, Intro To Cave, Apprentice Cave Diver and Cave Diver exist, a diver can be certified to any or all of these levels depending upon the goal of the diver and each level is a bonafide certification on its own and not necessarily a "student" diver.

For example, you can have a person who really doesn't like the idea of being off the gold line. Perhaps that diver has a fear of becoming lost on the line when white lines T or require jumps and gaps? This diver may not trust his or her sense of direction and ability to read the line markers in a siltout or may not feel comfortable trying to find their way back if a line were accidentally cut or a spool stolen. Because full cave demands circuits, this diver doesn't want to enter a full cave class because that would be off the main line and outside his or her comfort zone. A diver could spend years diving every day, running reels from open water to the gold line, learning a lot about the cave's geology and hydrology, displaying perfect trim, buoyancy and propulsion. In time, this diver would accumulate so much knowledge about diving and overhead diving that his or her consul could become invaluable. This diver might possess such awesome skills that he or she could backward kick better than anyone else in the community and be teaching cave instructor trainers how to refine this technique. Knowledge and experience about circuits, traverses, and other full cave diving activities would be lacking, but it's possible that such a diver could be better than anyone else in the world at diving the first 1000 feet of a cave system, knowing where to be in flow and maybe refining a swim to the Lips to the degree of an Olympic swimmer understanding every nuance of lane, temperature and ripple in a pool. This diver could potentially gain more overall knowledge of flora, fauna, geotherms, swimming skills, practice of valve drills and S-drills than every cave instructor trainer combined. For such a diver being considered a "student" or having "not yet completed training" would seem ridiculous. The only thing such a diver might lack is the comfort and confidence (due to the boogeyman of their imagination of what full cave diving is like) to do circuits and therefore won't gain a full cave card.

Then, imagine how this diver feels when he or she sees a cave instructor who can't frog kick, or a cave instructor trainer with consistent 20° down trim angle when that diver is always at 0° horizontal? Or, sees full cave divers who swim with their hands? Or, sees everyone else being sloppy with their reels entering The Ear? Or, divers not running a guideline or violating the 5 Rules of Accident Analysis?

Someone could take GUE-F all the way through GUE Tech 3 in open water, find out cave diving isn't for him beyond GUE Cave 1 and spend his whole career at the Cave 1 level. To better his experience and persepectives, he could decide to take NAUI Cave 1, NSS-CDS Intro, NACD Intro, TDI Intro, IANTD Intro, PDIC Cave 1, PSAI Intro, and be 100 times the cave diver as some full cave instructors in that first few hundred feet, know more about the cave to whatever distance 1/6's takes him, be the best buddy and an all-around great guy. Some divers see the merit and value of this.

Others would say, he's still just Intro. He's not a "real" cave diver. He's only partially trained. Comparing cave levels to mixed gas levels, are you only partially trained when diving nitrox, advanced nitrox, trimix 1, trimix 2? Do you have to be advanced trimix before you can speak with authority and experience about deep diving? If you live somewhere that 150 feet is your max possible depth are you not fully trained to dive there without trimix 2? Likewise, if your cave world (in your mind) ends at 1/6's on the mainline and you don't wish to see anything else are you just a partially trained cave diver or a great cave diver at that level?

Everyone will have his own opinions, but I think Perrone is thinking about being the type of intro to cave diver I've described if he never goes beyond that level and would value the diver I've described quite highly over many full cave divers carrying cards today.

The cave community would fear where a "partially trained" diver could go so the full cave card gives everyone peace of mind that that diver met the standards. Meanwhile some partially trained divers fear that the standards for many full cave divers aren't quite good enough.

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Originally Posted by FW

......

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When the book comes out, next week or next month, and you read the sentence where I mention Forrest - this is what I'm talking about! :clapper

Slightly off-topic, but considering the caliber of the most recent posts here, I really want to get opinions from y'all on something.

I am one of those who has the full cave training BUT not a lot of experience – I made several (3?) trips to N Fla to dive between Basic & Apprentice/Full, but I went from Basic to Full in a little over a year (about 8 years between Cavern and Basic, but that’s a different story). I’m comfortable “taking care of myself,” and I think I know my limits. I've been planning to stick to - for as long as I need to - diving with MORE experienced cavern/cave divers who are okay with diving conservatively when they dive with me because I want to learn from them and because that’s how I’d like to build up my experience.

I have friends/acquaintances who recently did the 8-day cavern to full course in Mexico with an instructor who was highly recommended. I’m sure they are well trained. They were both very experienced OW divers and have some technical certifications, but I don't know about their actual technical diving experience, and I haven't dove with either of them much. One of them and I have been talking about a trip to Florida together, b/c we think it would be fun. I don't have concerns about him wanting to dive beyond his (or my) training/experience level when/if we dive together. However, I'm guessing that going in the Ear is going to be a "trying" experience for him. It certainly was that for me the first time I tried to lead it - straight down the middle, close to the ground – I was very glad I was doing it WITH an instructor. He probably has more experience & training than I did at that time, but I think his experience of cave diving thus far has been in relatively still, shallow water. So, my question: how well does training in Mexico cenotes transfer to higher-flow Florida caves? and, Is there something I should be considering that I'm not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joanna.Cordry

So, my question: how well does training in Mexico cenotes transfer to higher-flow Florida caves? and, Is there something I should be considering that I'm not?

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Cave training is cave training. There are certainly differences to all sites. Flow, access, hikes into the woods..., Just take a few first dives slow to get familiar with the site and be honest in gauging comfort...

I did Basic in NFL and Apprentice/Full in Mexico. I am thankful for having done the first part of my training in Florida since that is my primary stomping grounds. I was also glad to do my App/Full in Mexico because I felt there is more complex navigational opporunities there with tons and tons of BT.

That said, I think I would be humbled very quickly if I did all my training in Mexico and then decided to lead a dive in Ginnie or any other high-flow cave for that matter. I don't know if your buddy will be able to dive too far beyond his training (or the junction room) for the first few dives in Devil's anyway :)

Thanks... that's kind of what I was thinking.

My first trip into Devils was the first time I'd been past the cavern zone of any cave, and I was just about overwhelmed by how beautiful it was. However, I was "just" following Ralph di Panfilo, and so it really didn't seem difficult at all... Second time in, though, when I led and "forgot" about high and left... I didn't even make it to the lips before my thumb came out. My head was pounding, and I was about to puke. Not one of my finer/happier moments...

Joanna,
From your post, I couldn't tell if you've done *any* diving with them. Before I'd go on a cave trip with them I'd take them out to Lake Travis and practice some basic skills. You should be able to get a bit of a feel of their trim and buoyancy by practicing tying ins, running a line, OOA practice, etc.

When my cave buddy and I make a trip to High Springs, we always hit Jackson Blue and Madison along the way. I'll probably get flamed for this, but depending on the flow I would consider Jackson a good warm-up to Ginnie for pull and glide.

Upon diving Ginnie with new divers, I'd probably enter first through the eye, then the ear after sufficient warnings/explanations of best technique. However, as netmage said, every cave is different and it just take experience/practice. That's the only way to learn.

BTW, if you're around, I'll be trying a new drysuit at Mansfield Dam this Sunday. Feel free to say 'hi'. (White Dodge Ram with a bedcover)

-Tom

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Originally Posted by rec2tec

BTW, if you're around, I'll be trying a new drysuit at Mansfield Dam this Sunday. Feel free to say 'hi'. (White Dodge Ram with a bedcover)

-Tom

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Hi Tom - thanks for the advice and the invite... I'd come out to the Dam to say hi to you this Sunday, but I'LL BE IN FLORIDA!!! (yes, I'm just a little excited... leaving Friday am... for 12 days...). Next time, though.

I just want to follow up - I have dove with them and am not worried about their skills. I guess I was just thinking about what Devil's was like for me the first time, and how I was glad I was with an instructor and not another newbie... I guess I also just FORGOT that - doh! - hopping into the Ear doesn't have to be our first dive when we get out of the car. In hindsight, now, it feels like a pretty silly question! Thanks, tho, for the responses.

...and now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joanna.Cordry

Hi Tom - thanks for the advice and the invite... I'd come out to the Dam to say hi to you this Sunday, but I'LL BE IN FLORIDA!!! (yes, I'm just a little excited... leaving Friday am... for 12 days...). Next time, though.

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Now that's just cruel.

Black, cold water here I come...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rec2tec

Now that's just cruel.

Black, cold water here I come...

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I only wish there was an icon for "batting her eyes"...

<cue evil laughter>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joanna.Cordry

I just want to follow up - I have dove with them and am not worried about their skills. I guess I was just thinking about what Devil's was like for me the first time, and how I was glad I was with an instructor and not another newbie... I guess I also just FORGOT that - doh! - hopping into the Ear doesn't have to be our first dive when we get out of the car. In hindsight, now, it feels like a pretty silly question! Thanks, tho, for the responses.

...and now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

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That's something you can keep in your back pocket for your dives. If they are all puffed up from their week in Mexico, take them to the ear and let them run the reel. That'll bring them back down a notch :smt100

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rec2tec

Joanna,
From your post, I couldn't tell if you've done *any* diving with them. Before I'd go on a cave trip with them I'd take them out to Lake Travis and practice some basic skills. You should be able to get a bit of a feel of their trim and buoyancy by practicing tying ins, running a line, OOA practice, etc.

When my cave buddy and I make a trip to High Springs, we always hit Jackson Blue and Madison along the way. I'll probably get flamed for this, but depending on the flow I would consider Jackson a good warm-up to Ginnie for pull and glide.

Upon diving Ginnie with new divers, I'd probably enter first through the eye, then the ear after sufficient warnings/explanations of best technique. However, as netmage said, every cave is different and it just take experience/practice. That's the only way to learn.

BTW, if you're around, I'll be trying a new drysuit at Mansfield Dam this Sunday. Feel free to say 'hi'. (White Dodge Ram with a bedcover)

-Tom

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Tom,

Warm up dives are good advice. Coming from the "unified team background" of GUE and having been a lacrosse player and coach, I started thinking about diving in the same terms as trying to put a ball through a goal. Those of us who played sports in high school or college remember how hard we worked just to cross a painted line or put a ball or a puck into a goal. People spend hours and hours practicing golf where there is very little risk to one's life (leaving statistical deaths on courses due to old age and poor diet aside). But, when it comes to an unforgiving sport like cave diving, you'd think people would want to practice before "game day."

I made a lot of cave dives in the Bahamas with Cristina Zenato who is an NSS-CDS full cave instructor over a three month time period in which I stayed on the island. I was cave diving nearly every day and she and I would cave dive about 2 to 3 times a week together around her work schedule. She had been guide on a previous trip and because we both dove Hogarthian and had the same swim speed and good communication and light referencing even on our first dive things just "gelled" and it seemed like we had been diving together for years. Our teamwork became even better as we explored together. On the island, twin AL80's with nitrox were pretty much all we needed for the majority of our dives.

We decided to take a trip to North Florida after Beneath The Sea last year to go cave diving. Even though we dove together, and even though she had done her CDS internship in North Florida most often at Ginnie Springs, and even though I dive North Florida quite frequently, we still decided to go to the ballroom at Ginnie Springs and practice stage drops and pick-ups, gas switches, and other skills and drills before we did stage and deco gas switch diving in the Devil's system. We wanted to make sure we were on the same page and had our routine and communication worked out for those tasks. Now, if two cave instructors who dove together all the time see the sanity in a couple practice dives, shouldn't cave divers, especially newer cave divers, see the benefit to that?

"The more you bleed in training the less you die in combat."

I just wanted to say that it is great that you lead by example. I think students that hear or read this will be more apt to follow, and less apt to be swayed by ego or chest thumping.