For what it's worth-!

There are at least two, maybe three submerged & gated cave systems that I know of. Devils Den is one, The Ballroom @ Ginnie is another, & there seems to be one on Vortex as well. They are there for a reason: To save lives-! If you feel strong enough go swimming in the muck with zero visibility, then by all means have fun, but please don't patronize one of our favorite dive sites by breaking the rules-! The Ballroom at Ginnie is gated shut & closed for good reason. No one is perfect, & all it takes is one non-thinking idiot to spoil it for all of us. There are numerous un-explored springs & caves to lay line in, & you really don't need to pay anyone to go have fun. Just please respect the land owners wishes & rules he has put up for your own well being.
Enough said. Been there, seen it, had fun, & respected the rules-!!
later.............>
:arrowred
je

Random.

sounds like someone found a way around the gate? hee hee.
A lot of hot action at Ginnie lately.

Would you support putting a grate up in devils to save lives?

Is the real issue here that we don't trust trained cave divers to make informed decisions on what caves they should or should not enter under their current combination of training and experience? If so, wouldn't the community be better off improving training rather than grating off access to cave systems? Seems that doing so would solve the ballroom issue, as well as the new exploration over at devils.

The gate at Vortex has a hinge with a padlock. They'll give you the key to the padlock on showing Full Cave certification. I haven't been terribly far back beyond the gate, but its not incredibly silty, mostly a sand bottom. Actually kinda nice too, quite a change from the worn-smooth rock walls and graffiti leading up TO the gate.

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Originally Posted by JE

There are at least two, maybe three submerged & gated cave systems that I know of. Devils Den is one, The Ballroom @ Ginnie is another, & there seems to be one on Vortex as well. They are there for a reason: To save lives-! If you feel strong enough go swimming in the muck with zero visibility, then by all means have fun, but please don't patronize one of our favorite dive sites by breaking the rules-! The Ballroom at Ginnie is gated shut & closed for good reason. No one is perfect, & all it takes is one non-thinking idiot to spoil it for all of us. There are numerous un-explored springs & caves to lay line in, & you really don't need to pay anyone to go have fun. Just please respect the land owners wishes & rules he has put up for your own well being.
Enough said. Been there, seen it, had fun, & respected the rules-!!
later.............>
:arrowred
je

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Jenny was sealed off for one reason. Lawsuits. And in case you have missed the whole riparian rights deal in florida for the last 40 or so years, the land owners do not now or have ever owned the inside of the ballroom.

The grate in Jenny changed the flow and sediment deposition patterns in the area. The restriction into the cave was backmount with double 104's and a horsecollar bc and a light canister as big as your leg. And the front part of the cave is big and pretty. The back part is a silty nightmare, hence all of the dead morons. You could see all of Jenny with one 500 foot reel. It was a great training dive.

I was against the grate when the idea came up, and still think about a long dive with a sharp hacksaw.

So there is no real legal authority stopping someone from removing the grate in the Ballroom?

I am in no way saying it should be done, or anything like that...just wondering under what authority it was installed..and so on.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

The restriction into the cave was backmount with double 104's and a horsecollar bc and a light canister as big as your leg.

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We didn't have 104s at the time, those would have been Nimrod 100s :-D

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Originally Posted by MedCop

So there is no real legal authority stopping someone from removing the grate in the Ballroom?

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Things that make you go hmmmmmmm

The cave goes under their land and the grate is attached to their rocks.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Jenny was sealed off for one reason. Lawsuits.

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Let's not forget that what John said is the bottom line. If someone gets past the grate, and the insurance company finds out, GSO looses their insurance, and *WE* loose access to the entrance, no matter who owns the cave itself.

As it has been pointed out, they can't block the river entrance, but they can put a fence up across the run, keeping us out of the Eye. Besides Jason, who here wants to own/rent a boat, or canoe, and add the time involved with transporting yourself and gear from a remote dock? Nevermind what would happen to your vehicle while you were gone.

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

The cave goes under their land and the grate is attached to their rocks.

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By the same logic, since they own the land on both sides of the river, they can put up a fence blocking boat traffic. The river goes through their land and the fence would be attached to their dirt so it would be legal, right?

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Originally Posted by Marchand

By the same logic, since they own the land on both sides of the river, they can put up a fence blocking boat traffic. The river goes through their land and the fence would be attached to their dirt so it would be legal, right?

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No, because the river is a navigable waterway, the underground river is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marchand

By the same logic, since they own the land on both sides of the river, they can put up a fence blocking boat traffic. The river goes through their land and the fence would be attached to their dirt so it would be legal, right?

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No, That's not right. There is a law against blocking spring runs or rivers. They tried that at Blue springs a few years ago and it didn't fly. You can't block navigable water ways or impede the flow of a spring. They would have to pull a permit just to put a bridge over the water. Madison got away with the partial damning of that spring because it was done before the law change.

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Originally Posted by FW

Let's not forget that what John said is the bottom line. If someone gets past the grate, and the insurance company finds out, GSO looses their insurance, and *WE* loose access to the entrance, no matter who owns the cave itself.

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That sounds like something for their lawyer to straighten out since they have no "legal" standing to install the grate or to prosecute anyone who would remove it.

Although I think it's fine there, I do believe that it is not something that could be fought in court if it were removed.

I actually find it odd for an insurance company to require an item to be placed in a location blocking egress to something not owned by the covered. Then again, I wouldn't put it past an insurance company to do so... :roll:

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Originally Posted by FW

As it has been pointed out, they can't block the river entrance, but they can put a fence up across the run, keeping us out of the Eye. Besides Jason, who here wants to own/rent a boat, or canoe, and add the time involved with transporting yourself and gear from a remote dock? Nevermind what would happen to your vehicle while you were gone.

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They wouldn't do that because it would affect the tubers use of the property and runs. We all know the tubers can't be affected.... :yawinkle:

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

No, because the river is a navigable waterway, the underground river is not.

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It could be argued that the cave is in fact a navigable waterway because it is, in a round about way, used for interstate commerce. Someone from another state comes to Florida, pays to get tanks filled and then pays for land access to the cave. Grating off the cave may have prevented people from out of state from coming to Florida and spending money to dive that cave. Therefore grating off the cave affects interstate commerce, and the cave can be defined as a navigable waterway.

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Originally Posted by Marchand

It could be argued that the cave is in fact a navigable waterway because it is, in a round about way, used for interstate commerce. Someone from another state comes to Florida, pays to get tanks filled and then pays for land access to the cave. Grating off the cave may have prevented people from out of state from coming to Florida and spending money to dive that cave. Therefore grating off the cave affects interstate commerce, and the cave can be defined as a navigable waterway.

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Navigable Lakes and Rivers
The Public Trust Doctrine protects the public status of "navigable" water bodies. Florida case law defining "navigability" is clearly established. A waterway is navigable if at the time of statehood in 1845,(14) it was used or was capable of being used(15) as a highway for waterborne trade or travel(16) conducted by the customary modes of that period.(17) Navigability does not require year-round capacity for navigation, but does require capacity for navigation in the water body's ordinary state.(18) Contemporary capacity for navigation in vessels of the size used for transporting passengers and goods in the statehood period is substantial evidence of navigability.(19) Artificial water bodies or waterways rendered navigable through improvement by dredging are not legally navigable.(20) Customary modes of waterborne trade and travel in the mid-1800s included steamboats,(21) barges,(22) dug-out canoes,(23) and home-made skiffs,(24) all of which were used to transport passengers, products of the country, and produce from local farms.(25) Navigability must also be understood in the context of the land transportation system that existed at the time of statehood. Railroads were virtually nonexistent. In 1845, the only railroad in the state ran from Tallahassee to St. Marks, operated on wooden rails, and had carts pulled by mules.(26) Engines didn't arrive until 11 years later.(27) Roads were little better. The legislature declared that public roads were in satisfactory condition so long as the tree stumps left in the road were less than 12 inches high,(28) the few bridges that existed washed out during times of high water, and uncertain ferry service provided crossing of all the major streams.(29) As a result, lakes and streams were by far the most reliable public highways for moving goods and people.

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I dont think even Forrest Wilson was cave diving in 1845. I think a strong case can be made that the public's right to travel ends at the high water mark extending vertically downward. Vandalizing the grate at ginnie would be dealt with harshly, just as if someone swam to the back of LR and vandalized the well casing.

Definition of
Navigable Waters of the US...

a. Past, present, or potential presence of interstate or foreign commerce;

I guess it all depends on who's definition you use...

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Originally Posted by Marchand

Definition of
Navigable Waters of the US...

a. Past, present, or potential presence of interstate or foreign commerce;

I guess it all depends on who's definition you use...

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Read Daniel Ball.

What about all the laws about defacing caves that were quoted chapter and verse during the whole DIC incident. Drilling into cave walls to put a grate up, I would suspect, would be considered by state law as defacing or vandalism no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marchand

It could be argued that the cave is in fact a navigable waterway because it is, in a round about way, used for interstate commerce. Someone from another state comes to Florida, pays to get tanks filled and then pays for land access to the cave. Grating off the cave may have prevented people from out of state from coming to Florida and spending money to dive that cave. Therefore grating off the cave affects interstate commerce, and the cave can be defined as a navigable waterway.

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The grate certainly impedes the natural flow of water through the aquifer and into the river which is a natural resource.

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

Read Daniel Ball.

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I much prefer Lucille Ball. Or even Ed Ball. Or Red Rubber Ball by the Cyrkle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

What about all the laws about defacing caves that were quoted chapter and verse during the whole DIC incident. Drilling into cave walls to put a grate up, I would suspect, would be considered by state law as defacing or vandalism no?

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In my opinion, putting a grate on a cave is the worst kind of vandalism.

But,

Cave vandalism is only a first degree misdemeanor.

If it is a first degree misdemeanor you have to prosecute within 2 years.

The Grate is more than two years old.

So we should remove the grate, wait for them to put in a new one, and then prosecute them...

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Originally Posted by Marchand

So we should remove the grate, wait for them to put in a new one, and then prosecute them...

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ooh I like it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

In my opinion, putting a grate on a cave is the worst kind of vandalism.

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QFT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

In my opinion, putting a grate on a cave is the worst kind of vandalism.

But,

Cave vandalism is only a first degree misdemeanor.

If it is a first degree misdemeanor you have to prosecute within 2 years.

The Grate is more than two years old.

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I suspect many of you know that MANY caves in Florida (and GA, TN, AL, etc) are grated/gated. This is done for many reasons (bat habitats/nurseries, vandalism, etc.).

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

I suspect many of you know that MANY caves in Florida (and GA, TN, AL, etc) are grated/gated. This is done for many reasons (bat habitats/nurseries, vandalism, etc.).

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Gates are one thing, (semi)permanently sealing off a cave is another.

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

Gates are one thing, (semi)permanently sealing off a cave is another.

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I guess we should be glad they didn't use dynamite, e.g...Morrison

On a less intellectual note:
IF you remove the grate at Ginnie ...
Then that cavern might/maybe/should be (etc) become null and void to open-water divers. Or at least no lights allowed.

I know everyone has their opinion but having done MANY dives in the cavern and having seen people do some really "NASSY" stuff in there , if you remove the grate , who knows what could happen???!!!!

Of course , it would be nice if we could dive in the system , but from a "practical" standpoint ...
It probably won't happen.

OK , now back to your regularily scheduled intellectual discussion ALREADY in progress :D

Da Beano

P.S. I am GLAD I just dive em , and not make the rules FOR em ... :D Makes it easier that way (for me at least). Like I said , I tend to be practical. AND I am out in California at the moment so no one can throw stuff at me out here... (EEK)

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Originally Posted by Marc Bryan

I guess we should be glad they didn't use dynamite, e.g...Morrison

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What we should really be glad about is that they didn't just go with the original plan... "NO diving". That can happen again if we push too much!

Remember, it was *cave divers* that requested the grate, so we would have access to Devil's Eye. It was cave divers that installed the grate in the first place.

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Originally Posted by FW

What we should really be glad about is that they didn't just go with the original plan... "NO diving". That can happen again if we push too much!

Remember, it was *cave divers* that requested the grate, so we would have access to Devil's Eye. It was cave divers that installed the grate in the first place.

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Well, what a nasty little can of worms I seem to have help open. Sorry, Forrest.

OK, I don't like the grate. I don't like what happened at Morrison. It happened before 80% of you guys were born/or diving/or had stopped spreading your food on the walls with your feet.

It is easy to sit around and second guess anything. There were those that argued against the grate when it happened. The grate was a compromise. The whole damn campground is a nightmare to most anyone that remembers how it was to dive Jenny and Devils in the 1970's. Learn to live with it. I have.

I remember when Mr Graves was given the choice to blow Morrison shut. It happened a long time ago. I was certified to dive in 1967, and the third cave was open. IT WAS NO MOUNT. 95% of you guys would not have gone in there anyhow. You had to push your tank in front of you, in Morrison's flow, with a 6 volt light..... There was a sign at Morrison that kept a running total of the people that drowned. It was well over 20. The sheriff gave Mr Graves 2 options. Close the springs to diving, or shut the third cave. And then, a few years later, a flood took away his store and house.

When I mentioned a long dive with a hacksaw, I was being sarcastic. PLEASE do not ever take anything I post as serious. I was only serious when I suggested using 12 ton hydraulic jacks to enlarge the lips.(I think 6 or so would do it). Here is what you do, and what I have done.......

DO NOT GO TO GINNE SPRINGS!!!! If you don't like it, stay the hell away. Do not enrich them by contributing your money. As much as I dislike it, Bob Wray voted with his wallet. I was outvoted. He wins.

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Originally Posted by FW

What we should really be glad about is that they didn't just go with the original plan... "NO diving". That can happen again if we push too much!

Remember, it was *cave divers* that requested the grate, so we would have access to Devil's Eye. It was cave divers that installed the grate in the first place.

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I am glad about it. That is the reason I follow all of the rules, whether I like them or not, and not just the rules I feel are appropriate. If more divers did this, maybe there would be less discussion of no diving allowed!

I am aware that it was "some" cave divers that requested and installed the grate. I actually have no issue with it at all. I was just stating that at least they didn't go crazy and permanently seal the thing with dynamite, so that there would be no reversing the decision if some reason some day warranted it.

I will now go back to my 10 years of lurking, and one post every 3 years schedule.:yawinkle:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I was only serious when I suggested using 12 ton hydraulic jacks to enlarge the lips.(I think 6 or so would do it).

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I guess you haven't been there recently. The Lips is about twice as high as it once was. You can scooter through there now. I remember having to stop the scooter, and push it through the Lips. Both entrances are also much larger. I remember having to wriggle through both the Ear, and the restriction in the Eye.

Our very presence in a cave vandalizes it. Even if you don't ever touch any part of a cave, your bubbles erode the ceiling, and your light disturbs the cave organisms. If you doubt this, go to Ginnie (the ballroom) and look up at the ceiling, or just stand and look at the floor of the headpool. There were never any bubbles coming up through the limestone in the early '70s. GSO has to remove a pile of limestone debris off the floor of the cavern every few years because of the damage our bubbles do to the roof.

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Originally Posted by FW

Our very presence in a cave vandalizes it.

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I dove Little Hart Sunday, I decided not to follow the line but instead follow the stakes hammered in the walls (resembled those at Peacock and others) with survey tape flying from them.

Why is this conversation never had in the caving community?

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

Why is this conversation never had in the caving community?

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If you mean "dry" caving community, trust me it is!

You should read the rules for doing Lechuguilla.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

If you mean "dry" caving community, trust me it is!

You should read the rules for doing Lechuguilla.

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I am very familiar with them...However, there does not seem to be the same "outrage" in the caving community as the cave diving community reagarding digging, exploring, etc.

In the last NSS News, there was even an article retracted by the editor regarding this type of "outrage".

It would be interesting to hear what WS has to say about all this-? He was employed by Ginnie for a long time & also has vast knowledge of the Ballroom's geography. Maybe he'll pick up on this thread & enlighten us-!
Wes................>your input please.
TY
^_^
JE

ps: enjoyed seeing your broadcasts on PBS recently, very informative.