Just wanted to be the first to offer you congratulations on all that you've accomplished this week, and boohoo to all the naysayers.... :)
But you did look like **** coming out the Eye with all those empty bottles....
Safe diving,
Rich
Printable View
Just wanted to be the first to offer you congratulations on all that you've accomplished this week, and boohoo to all the naysayers.... :)
But you did look like **** coming out the Eye with all those empty bottles....
Safe diving,
Rich
Details?
What did I do?
I could tell he was up to something this week. Congrats on whatever it is :)
Now would be a great time to post a thread in the main forum with a title such as,
"Hey who removed the grate in the Ballroom and lined it?"
"Who relined Devil's with glow in the dark line?"
or
"Those maps are back!"
I'm guessing...
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8486
Did he do what I think he did? How much of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
F
Mapped all of it that I could find, added a few feet but nothing worth talking about.
I must be out of the loop, but then again i dive Ginnie thrice a year. Andrew, could you please enlighten me on what has happened? PM me if needed, but im really interested.
Looking forward to seeing thatQuote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Well, enough people know that I can start going semi public. Especially since I've finished diving. I mapped a bunch of stuff in the new passage at Ginnie. I promised Rich and Larry an exclusive for NACD so you'll have to wait. The story will include my map - FOR FREE ( :) )life's too short to beg people to pay me $150 for one, and threaten them when their friends use a blurred copy in their videos.
...Actually truth be told, my survey quality wasn't that high. But it makes for a cool story.
A teaser - the new deepest point in Ginnie is 150 feet deep!!!
ah, starting to make sense, now, I'm guessing you used a snippet of a devils map in a video and pissed some people off.
Who is it that owns the rights to that expensive map, because the cartography is listed as Steve Berman.
I don't mind buying CDS maps because they don't cost $150.00 and the money goes toward the CDS, I assume, but never been able to bring myself to laying out for that ginnie map.
Well I know it was a set of hard dives and a lot of work. Congrats Andrew, you have done it!
Thats great! Can't wait to read about it!
Ditto!Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyDCaver
Andrew it was great meeting with you after your dive on saturday. thanks for taking the time to share what you're doing with us.
it's fascinating stuff for sure!
-Brian
Begging? and from a business school marketing professor no less....for free? Let me explain the concept of opportunity cost to you when you have the time :)Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Bill Huth
Dude, we're academics... we hand away research for free all the time. The idea being, it promotes increased trade of ideas. Which is what I'm hoping to achieve - I hope to get otehrs to give me data so we can grow the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman
Anyway it was just a tongue in cheek jab at... well, you know who. Frankly I think his map is extraordinary, a far higher quality than I intend to produce, And worth every cent of the $150 that I paid.
Yes we do, but we also participate in the textbook business as well and if you spent a year or so on a marketing text and then found out that it was being downloading as a scanned pdf instead of purchased you might not be very happy about it. Intellectual property is just that and there are rights as you well know...actually when it comes to "research" take a look at what your tech transfer office thinks about handing research (that has commercial value) away for free...the free trade of ideas is a bit naive these days, more so in the hard sciences of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Dude, the tongue was outside the cheek on that one in my humble opinion...Your discipline has developed begging (the corporate type) to a fine art and you have devoted yourself to the teaching and research of that art....i just found your use of the term in its context given your discipline a bit ironic.
I'm glad to hear that you appreciate the quality that the map represents...it was certainly something that most of us can aspire to but never achieve and in the end we all still stand on the shoulders of those who went before us...
Yes, you textbook people are so honest in your business dealings. When you try to sell US students a book at $200 and then turn around and sell to international students the same book for $40, there's a big problem. When you are using the same textbook the next semester and will only buy back my barely used one for $5, there's a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman
Free collaborative efforts have spawned some of the most incredible ideas and products, the most prominent this day and age has been Linux. It is a collaborative idea nearly 20 years in the making and is embedded in many of todays home electronics.
If Andrew chooses to produce his map for free, then so be it. (I could see charging for the print and lamination if he comes out with a paper version).
And Andrew, congratulations on your accomplishment.
I am not suggesting that he charge for it at all and i agree he can do whatever he wishes with it. As to texts, I see you are beginning to understand marketing...let andrew explain market segmentation and protest to your university regarding your bookstore poliicies. My post was directed at the comment he made with regard to the selling of an existing devil's map. Opportunity cost is a difficult concept to grasp...any action has as a cost its next best alternative. Having used linux to run mail servers back in the early days of the internet (remember bitnet?) i certainly spent a few minutes getting it configured.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdenney
Bill, so who are you publishing through that actually pays a royalty worth collecting? Has academia changed that much over the past decade? Researchers publish for fame, not fortune, unless you count teaching at a "publish or perish" mill where lack of publication means termination of tenure hopes. I totally agree with sdenny with regard to the textbook issue, which is why I made a lot of my own personal material available free of charge to my students; I was there to teach them, not to profit from them nor see the publishing houses get rich. To each his own I suppose. Just think how much knowledge would be available to the average man if more people thought like Andrew; just think how far that would advance our civilization.
Advancing civilization won't line peoples pockets with greenbacks so people don't care.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeWayne
It must be a slow time in some people's life to be semi-arguing this. It is not even an argument by any stretch of the imagination.
:smt015
Yes, I could just ignore it............but I am in slack times too....:smt102
Bill, it was a tongue in cheek comment at best. I'm not sure why you got riled up. I know that Jeff (since we're now going there) thinks that I'm spreading his map around, and indeed has some weird ideas about calling the FBI to report me. But what the hell, if tongues are going to exit cheeks, here goes.
Please ask him to do so at any time. I've posted him my address and phone number before, and a simple internet search will produce my work address. Hell, I'll call the FBI and give myself in if he wants - just ask him to forward me the number he'd like me to call. What a joke.
It IS true that MULTIPLE pdf files of that map exist created by different people, and it is true that I have been emailed one before. it is NOT true that I created this map or was responsible for its dissemination. He also seems to think I have it on a website somewhere. Really? Would someone like to give me a URL for it? I now that at least one of the creators would only send it out to people who had purchased Jeff's map. If - and only if - someone is able to subpoena me successfully I'll divulge who that is. But several dozen other people with the map can tell you who that is too.
He'll have to use someone else as his whipping horse. And seriously, I think that you would know me better. I'm a big believer in the value of intellectual property.
However... and there are some big howevers. Jeff needs to learn a bit about how those laws work. There is the law of fair use:
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
Which I pointed out to Jeff the first time he started this nonsense applied to Terry's video. In fact, a read of all this would be of use to him:
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/
Anyway, I still have to figure out what I've done wrong. There's a pdf file of Jeff's map that hundreds - possibly thousands - of people have. I was not responsible for its creation or dissemination. I believe in intellectual property. I've repeatedly stated that I paid full price for that map, and love it.
But boy, and I sick of threats, veiled and unveiled, as well as nonsense like that which you propagate above, against my own character. And you, Bill, are far too clever a man to be joining in this nonsense.
If you want to discuss this be a man and call me at 310 9042982. Not this veiled nonsense on this website.
Boy. And I thought we were friends.
I will point out that I'm not going to sit here taking this nonsense. If people want to react in this way, then I will act back against them. I'm not into physical responses, but I'm willing to debate, mock, and otherwise respond to this puerile, infuriating, petty nonsense. Which was the tenet of my earlier jibe.
Oh - and Bill is of course perfectly right about books charging different prices in different places. Market segmentation and price discrimination is one of the most important ideas in marketing. What on earth makes anyone think that only one price should be charged for a product? I'm not going to go into it now, but there's a huge amount of social good that comes from price discrimination. If book manufacturers were forced to see al one price they wouldn't drop to $40, they'd only cater to the high price segment at $100, and many third world students would be less educated. And why do you think you're osed money for your used book? The value is in your reading it - and it's used! So you've taken the intellectual content. There's a paper by a famous economist at yale on textbook versions to exactly this point, demonstrating that frequent updates on textbooks (thereby killing the old textbook's 2nd hand market value) helps support the intellectual content of that book. Look up Judy Chevalier for more.
Well Andrew, it is clear that you are a scoff law and scoundrel. And the FBI? What do the Fu**ing Building Inspectors have to do with this?
I am now concerned about MY valuable intellectual property. So I give all of you permission to use any of these ideas:
1 - Recycled cat fur - Farm raised long haired cats can be shaved and their fur used as a alternative to synthetic fibers in quilts and pillows.
2 - Biofuel made from the leftovers of liposuction. I know that this has been done on a small scale, but this could give new meaning to the phrase "fat farm". And we have a lot of big eaters in the south. Also, the leftovers could be used as industrial grease.
3 - Botox injections for smiling dogs. I just hate it when they smile at me. Who knows what they are REALLY thinking? Sure their lips may sag a bit, but so what.
4 - Interest bearing accounts at sperm banks. OK, I haven't worked out all the details yet. Some type of "certificate of deposit" I'm thinking.
Feel free to refine and market these as you see fit.
The practice of market segmentation in textbooks is now ILLEGAL by order of SCOTUS!! Look it up. As for myself, I no longer get my textbooks at any of the local bookstores. Amazon and other online retailers offer much better deals. As for Book-Buyback... every bookstore advertises like crazy for it, some year-round. My expectation is that they practice what they preach. At this point, my textbooks are for my professional classes and I will most likely be keeping all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Read the case more carefully.
It's not illegal to price discriminate on foreign editions. But it's also not illegal to reimport foreign editions. Two different things.
The diecision makes sense. It's up to marketers to create barriers between segments, not governments.
Put simply - it's NOT right to force publishers to publish at one price everywhere. But it's also NOT right to tell US Universities that they may not buy books in other countries.
It was a nice decision upholding free markets.
It's an unfortunate and unexpected consequence of this that those foreign editions may, depending on the distribution of demand, go up in price.
Book buybacks are, IMHO, immoral. however that's a whole other discussion. Look up the Chevalier paper. The publishers use versioning of textbooks to protect intellectual capital. It's sort of a side issue in the paper but there's some interesting learning from it. Here's a write-up:
http://www.nber.org/digest/feb06/w11421.html
Now, back to cave diving...
Wow you really went digging! Congradulations and yes I am from the FBI lol :)Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
Seriously, it was pretty amazing finding myself at that depth. My computer was going crazy, since my PO2 was, err..., high.
when will the article be out? im interested to read it.
Next edition of NACD's journal, which is quarterly. Probably early December.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
What did your oxygen exposure look like at the end of the dive? I'd love to see the profile download from the computer....
Mark
I think I can do that. O2 exposure was ridiculous.Although i did take regular 20 min on/5 min off "air" (really 32%) breaks.
How many cylinders did it take to complete the dive?
Lots of o2 time, curious what your final CNS was.
My guess from the profile 250-300%....Quote:
Originally Posted by fixxervi6
You going to tell about the set up Andrew?Quote:
Originally Posted by fixxervi6
Sorry for the delayed response, i have been traveling. I will give you a ring (I do my best at the be a man thing and, for the most part, i think i have been successful at it) when back in the office tommorrow. I have read the tds posts regarding the sweet surprise mainland video and understand that you had nothing to do with that. I was not in any way suggesting that you infringed and your comments about others thinking that you had the map up as a pdf i had never heard before. The intellectual property comments were simply there to, perhaps, allow you to develop some empathy for how jh might feel if his work was being infringed. We are all not ip attornies and have limited info and many misconceptions about the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I will say one more time that i think your in public tongue in cheek jab at jeff was a bit over the top...perhaps i am wrong here but if someone suggested to me that i was a beggar i would not be pleased (I have observed jeff give his map away for free ((free of charge)) whenever he thought someone could not afford it or had a need to use it). My post was simply a public response to that jab suggesting you were off base and nothing more than that. My first instinct (which in hindsight may have been better) was, as a moderator here, to delete that phrase from your post as a violation of rule 6 but other moderators let it stand so i responded. Clearly you are a bit sensitive about these issues and i think you have read things into my words that are not there.
Yes i thought and still think that we are friends and i am still friends with jeff as well. If jeff had said the same thing or something similar about you on this forum i would have responded to that as well.
Ip is interesting and I was the tech transfer officer for my university when i was research vp...your office appears to be typical and has the info readily available for all to use which is why i suggested to you to go there to begin with:
http://www.research.ucla.edu/oipa/
Where this is now was certainly not the purpose of this thread and i do not want to redirect it any further. Your exploration is definitely an accomplishment...i have been a short way into that knarly tunnel...and will work a bit on my sidemount tank removal in the front of the cave before i go back. I also swam there from the henkel the last time and will do like everyone else and scooter to the end of the gold line next time. Bill
Hi Dewayne, Yes academia has changed a lot in the last decade or so. I was referring to the technology transfer offices (http://www.autm.net/) that have the responsibilty to manage and market university ip (patents, etc.). I have often thought that UF should have given gatoraide away but oh well. The textbook issue and research issues are, for the most part, very different. There are many philosophical discussions possible here but lets move to the fill station for them. BillQuote:
Originally Posted by DeWayne
Hey Bill,
I probably overreacted. Sorry about that. Still, I'm REALLY sick of hearing about this FBI weirdness. And your comments did seem to say that I was responsible for stealing his property. I see now that you were more stating that he deserved that income. Which I fully agree with. I just wish he wouldn't be so weird about "policing" (for want of a better word) compliance.
Hey no harm here from my perspective: i think that the fbi weirdness comes from the little message we all see when watching a dvd:Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
http://www.fbi.gov/ipr/
I can understand your issue here, there are few things worse then being wrongly accused. Yes i do think jeff needs to work on his business model as well. There is much value still in his product.
What if Andrew's data gets added to that bigger map? Would that be a possibility in the future?
Frankly I don't think my data are up to that. I was pretty rough in my measurements, and there's no way I measured to Jeff's level. It would need a thorough resurvey to get to those standards.
I have an expanded map that is "eyeball and experience" map quality. Actual data, however rough, would be a step up. I'd gladly add it to my map if you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
The map is not for sale at any price (but I've given it free to a few people - to remain few).
Damn Gary, do i have to beg? BillQuote:
Originally Posted by Gary
Nice beggar's bowl, Bill.
Thanks....i was hoping someone would notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Just to point out that some of the noblest people are beggars......Buddhists.
Ah, I missed the bowl - nice one. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman
I'm not posting maps or directions to new places. If someone has been there and has need of a map I have no problem sharing.
Well, on that basis Gary, there's a lot of map I can't show you. But thanks for the kind offer to let me give you my data without reciprocation.
Of course, I'm kidding. It'll all be in the NACD journal.
There was a time when people shared exploration. What the hell happened?
When was that, 1492? In the 40 or so years I have been caving, nobody released a map, until they were "sure" there was no more virgin passage in the cave. Florida is very rare, in that *anyone* can buy a book with cave locations. In most states, you have to join the state cave survey to get locations, and even then the newest, unexplored, caves aren't listed.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Oh, it's already on my map - just not with any real detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
As you said yourself Jeff's Map being sold to the public was probably the worst damage creator to the Devil's System in a long time (just as the earlier maps were). The additional attention granted to this "new" passage won't benefit it much either.
Yeah - that was a counter-example to try to get people to think if their ire against Terry for making a video was warranted. it didn't mean that I believed maps were bad. I make most of my videos public and intend to do so with maps. And there's no way you have everything on your map. It's growing too fast. My map is already outdated.
Anyway, who exactly is going to get back there? My last dive took 9 stages, 4 of them permanent safeties, some non-standard gas planning techniques (DEFINITELY not thirds! but definitely doubles!) and involved a 2 hour deco. Most people just aren't interested in dealing with those logistics. It's a serious PITA dive.
Anyway Forrest, then so be it - I intend to do something different. I don't get to Florida tht often. I think it would be fantastic if some young people (and that's mainly who's going back there right now) got to benefit from the data I collected, and add new line in virgin cave off existing line, mapping it as they go. I've already given data out to one such person.
No one is belittling your dive. Congratulations. Thats a great accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Don't get me wrong I'm as eager to read about it as the next guy. But in what way does posting/writing about it benefit anything? After the divers death there it was said it was best left forgotten. Probably true.
Ok Gary- even I get your point, but posting about it is a good thing- Taking the time and effort to work a dive like that is advancing the sport- As usual, exploration is what this is all about- If andrew wants to talk about his corner of advancing the sport, more power to him- It's hard work, and he's right, as soon as you have to make a set up dive, 95% of the divers out there wont do it, so his area is safe. Let's hear about his accomplishments, and applaud him for continuing exploration instead of swimming back and forth in front of the destroyed silt dunes at Cow.
Wow- and somehow I missed your last sentence- Since when does someone croaking on a project mean that exploration should stop? Geez- that doesn't speak well for the dead, does it. I'm sure THEY wouldn't have wanted exploration to stop- regardless of how their own efforts ended.
Jason
Sorry, I don't agree. That is the same as saying that we should have scrapped the space program when 3 astronauts were burned alive on the launchpad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
Congrats Andrew, I am looking forward to your map. Am I ever going back there? Probably not. There's plenty of other passages that I want to see, but to know that a few will get to go there and be a little safer doing it due to Andrew's map, is exciting.
Keep it up guys, keep exploring. It's the true spirit of caving.
PS: Let me know when you find that old pirate ship like in the movie Goonies :yawinkle:
Stay safe all.
Its exceedingly difficult to do any type of geological research without maps. One of the biggest hurdles in karst research is trying to figure out who has maps of what caves and whether or not they're going to give them to people to use for research. One of the benefits of centralizing data/publicizing data is that it makes it available to larger groups of people (including researchers) and prevents data from being lost when the original surveyor dies or their house burns down.
I've personally witnessed several prominent cave divers who claim to support research and conservation tell legitimate researchers to pack sand when they were asked for a map of what they were surveying. These researchers didn't even cave dive! I've also had this problem with several very political state cave surveys.... On the other hand - I have had a lot of very generous cave divers that have bent over backwards to help me with my research.
My personal opinion about cave secrecy is that it actually hurts conservation efforts - who would want to save polar bears if biologists spent every day trying to purge the internet of any mention of them in an effort to prevent the one odd hunter from going out and shooting one. No development company wants to build over a known cave passage. However, once companies have already invested a lot of money in a development, purchased a property and then find out from cavers in the final planning stages that there is cave under their property - engineering solutions become more economical.
Damage done to caves by cave divers is really just cosmetic (Don't get the idea that I'm excusing it). We as cave divers are the only people that are really going to be affected by it. Now pollution, major conduit collapses or groundwater mining are all things that are not cosmetic and constitute a real threat to underwater caves. These are all things that can prevented if cave conservation was a bit more broad minded and pro-active.
You are right there Andrew. It IS a long way back there and that crack is just scary. I think that regardless of anything, that location in itself being 4K+ feet in there in low and silty layout is not going to attract many divers to just 'have a look'. You are more of a man than I am, it scared me away.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Gary, I'm seriously not trying to blow my own horn here. I just know most people don't like going through the schlepp. And I think they love to hear about what's back there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
It's just that this is a self-limiting club.
And I'm hardly the only one back there. Marius Frei and James Toland have laid almost all of the awesome line back there - I laid a paltry 200 feet. THEY deserve far more kudos for exploration back there than I do. They're (sepecially James) just quieter about it. I'm an anomaly in believing that talking about it brings the sport forward, not back. And probably an anomaly in WANTING others to go back there and lay new line.
If anyone else is a) laying new line back there, b) willing to take measurements, and c) willing to share those measurements, please let me know and I'll add your data to the map with full acknowledgement. But I'm unwilling ot make this a one way street, i.e. I give you data and you give me nothing back.
I'd love to collect that data for inclusion in the NACD article. Although James has expressed interest in putting something into NSS CDS so he may do a continuation article presenting further mapping data there.
Geez, nothing I hate more than the "good old boys" mentality. " The caves need to be protected from those who don't know where they are." "Posting about new exploration is going to ruin things." "I had some great dives at some beautiful caves, but I'm not going to say where." "New divers will ruin and damage the cave."
Then tell me....who really cares? It's like saying "I went to this amazing restaurant and had the best meal in my life, but I can't tell you where it is or how to get there, cuz if more people go they will ruin it for me."
I've got some big news. Cave diving is becoming more and more popular. People are going to dive the caves whether other people want to hide them or not. The "old guard" is just that, old. Sure there have been some great explorers who have advanced cave diving by leaps and bounds, but the bottom line is this; there are more and more new, young divers who are doing the same thing. This whole secret society mentality is old and boring.
As was mentioned before, the "damage" to the caves than any divers do is pretty much cosmetic and temporary. Caves are not immutable. No matter what, every single cave in the world is changing and will continue to change long after anyone here is alive. Even if no other diver was ever to enter a cave, they would keep on changing. Even the worst human impact from a diver in a cave is not permanent. At some point in the future time will wash it away, change the passage, open a new one, etc. Maybe not in our lifetime, or even in our children's or grandchildren's, but it will be changed. I don't condone running a scooter into a beautiful feature, a clay bank, etc. I don't condone writing one's name in the clay. On the other hand, the argument that more people in a passage ruins that passage is just plain elitist. More people in a passage may change that passage, and yes, some my even damage it, but that just changes the passage, it doesn't ruin it. A cave is a thing of beauty no matter how it changes over time. Being part of nature, the caves are gonna change. Being part of nature, people are going to interact with the caves and bring about some change. Life is all about change, embrace it!!
Andrew, I applaud your efforts. I can honestly say that I don't think I'll ever be at a point where I can successfully and safely perform the dives you have. I am thankful that you are willing to share your exploration with those of us who aren't part of the "secret society" so that we can marvel at what else is there and we can dream.
Like have said in the past "caves are not baseball diamonds" or in this case restaurants.So what if there are a million people taking cave diving,is there an implied right that they should be told where all caves and passages are?
I was grateful to any experienced cave diver/cave diver that chose to share new caves/data with me.
I applaud anyone who takes the time to map caves as accurately as they are able as it will benefit science and cavers/cave divers.Yes there will be human impact in doing so but at least it brings back something of value as a balance.
The internet and caves is just going to happen now,especially with a large portion of people using them as their primary means of communication.I think that is fine as long as people are prudent.Dissemination of information is a good thing in the proper context.
Fight Club people... damn-o!
You don't become a "member of the good-ol-boy club" on the internet. You wanna be a cave diver? Go cave diving, talk to people face to face there, amazing things will happen.
Some guy goes diving - feels big about it - puts a sign-in sheet.
Someone hears about it - feels the need to answer - dies.
Someone else feels the need to go next - feels big about it - posts it on the internet/writes an article - publishes a map...
The problem isn't that Andrew did it. It's the idiots who will read about it and follow that are the problem. :) It doesn't help that may of them will not have the skill and will try to drive scooters through a challenging sidemount passage - in backmount - with stages. :roll:
But whatever... I know I was idealistic about such things myself once. In a few years Andrew will look back on his "early days" and think much differently. Welcome to the club Andrew.
If anyone is taking scooters in there they're really mad. It's way too small. In fact I wonder how the hell you'd get it past the first restriction. And forget doubles.
Anyway go chat to Larry, Deborah and Rich. Perhaps you can convince them not to publish it. I promise that if you do convince them, I'll not publish it elsewhere.
Give it a rest Gary will you? That 'cave is under threat from invading inferior divers' spiel is getting old, even on this board.
If one so strongly feels about that protection from damage and massive traffic, why won't they stop the sale of maps, stop cave training sales and above all please do stop the sale of cave diving equipment.
Because regardless of anything there will always be better divers than any one, and far worse too.
There is an old Taiost saying: 'He who can not forgive his neighbor for being different than he is, is very far from the path of wisdom.' In stead of dreading the devastation of the cave, think about that once in a while. It takes away the urge to come across as imposing solely ones own views on the world.
(of course I am aware of the opening I leave with this myself)
Well Andrew your not my favorite person by a long shot, but if you did what I think you did my hat is off to you, congrats.
Now that is a man with a spine and character. My hat off to you!Quote:
Originally Posted by fixxervi6
Gary,Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
It's real obvious that you feel those of us who are newer cave divers are ruining your caves. The nss-cds has put a pamphlet out about cave conservation, and published a pdf online. Instructors have incorporated lecture on this into their coursework. Obviously there is not enough being done in your mind. Have you considered joining up with the NACD and NSS-CDS events to offer a cave conservation lecture or maybe guided dives? You can make your own website accusing divers of ruining the caves, but that won't help. Maybe time would be better spent with a guided teaching dive or lecture with video?
Now, don't get me wrong, I've heard instructors first hand telling students to kick off cave walls, using ceiling walks (although there ARE situations when I can see this as less damaging than pulling), and just this weekend, allowing students to kneel in the silt while tying into a jump....things that are certainly frowned upon. I came to the game too late to see the cornflakes when they looked like cornflakes, or the mud flats when they weren't littered with fin marks hand prints and stage drags. I really appreciate your efforts, however if you are truly dedicated to preserving the caves, I think there are better methods to go about it....I know those who have dove with me have given me tips, and I implement them. If you'll consider it, I'm sure lots of us would gladly listen to any tips you have to share, or skills you'd like to demonstrate, and maybe as a return, you could see the caves you obviously love stop getting damaged? Complaining on line certainly hasn't helped. I've heard from mutual friends of ours that you not only post about it online, but you "walk the walk" too, when you dive so to speak, maybe you can convert this dedication towards something that will pay off, rather than wasting your time talking about an issue that 99.999% of us are already frustrated about.
Certainly not. I'm sure it's an extremely few real wackos that do the vast majority of the damage. But obviously I didn't believe cautions from "elders" 10 years ago and it won't work on you all either now.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
So let me get the show back on the road:
Congratulations Andrew!!! Great dive! Can't wait to read about it! :clapper
Have any of you considered the irony of "laying line" and then trying to keep it a secret?
:-)
:clapperQuote:
Originally Posted by OneBrightGator
Well... one CAN do that pretty easily by using jumps. It' a big Mexican trick. That plus their even more secretive approach to maps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Still I'd thought the same thing, like the time we got yelled at for posting video of mainland/sweet surprise. Sheesh - seriously, there were people that didn't know it was there? Really? Dude - just follow the damn (clearly mapped) line!
A fun update - someone has now been to 165 feet depth in Ginnie, past where I laid line. How cool is that? And it's not even a boy - it's a girl for crying out loud!
More in the NACD journal....
Cool - who is it? (PM it to me if it is a secret)Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Was it Sarah Palin?Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Let me guess...she is even farther from home than you, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Good Guess! However, I am assuming you already knew the answer before Andrew posted that.
I don't know... Zimbabwe is a long way away...
(to clarify, that's where I was born and raised)
So is the land down under...where women glow and men plunder...Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
:-DQuote:
Originally Posted by wingman
No, I didn't know for sure, but I don't know any American women that would do a dive like that, anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by contender
Wow! Them's fighting words!Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Women don't get egged into things like you men as a rule. The ones that are exploring now and will continue to explore have their own projects. We can rejoyce in the accompishments of others without envy. Each of us has our own skill and accomplishments from the cavern diver to the long distance push divers. It's not making maps or exploration that "eggs" people into doing dives they are not ready for. It's the lack of knowing their limits and the desire to test them.
A friend of mine told me one time that exploration was the rape of a cave. That the first explorer does the most damage by his or her discovery and release of the information. For a long time that's why people didn't talk about what they found. In an odd way they protected the caves they explored. Now exploration is common knowledge. We cave divers tend to gossip and enjoy the thrill of passing that type of information on.
For the most part the caves that are found and explored continue to be "secret" until the cave is completly mapped, access is assured and the cave is properly lined. A lot of people feel it's the good old boy system. I believe it's the right thing to do.
With a cave like Ginnie Springs I am with Andrew, he didn't start all this, he may have been a little imprudent on who he shared information with. ;) He is right though that most people don't have the equipment or the motivation to push the boundries of Ginnie Springs. Bravo to the explorers who are challanging this cave! I will tell you from experience that the end of the line glory is very fleeting, someone is always willing to push that cave a little bit farther. Connections however last forever. Cindy
Nicely said Cindy. I'm not sure who you're referring to on the imprudence, but I might even agree with you there!
Agreeing on the internet is NOT allowed !! :smt021Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
If anyone wants to use this as a signature...feel free
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Cindy....................well said and very eloquently I must say! You are a class act, a great diver, and have done allot for cave diving, so thank you.
I thought the report would be in the latest Journal?
I think Cindy is right about the attitude of women, in general of course. I do find a map to be a good goal, though.
I'm not torqued at Forrest for his comment. The fact is there aren't so many women cave divers in the world. The ones who push really hard stuff is small. I can think of a few that might. Cindy? Maybe? Jill H? What about Rose?
i think the next oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Jay
Yep, deadline had passed for the last one when I got back.