Beware:(

Dear Cave Diving Community,
This is probably the first negative review of an instructor I have seen posted. And the only one posted after never having taken a class with the instructor.

Let me tell you what occurred. In the early part of this year I started searching for a way to improve myself in an overhead environment. I decided that I would take Cavern + Intro from Nick Leone(who some of you know as caver95) and emailed him with my dates. Unfortunately he was unable to do my dates, but recommended me to :blackbar. Having heard the names before and hearing good things about them as teachers, I called them, and we agreed upon a class date of June 1st(since I was planning to fly down on the 1st and stay for 2 weeks to get good and waterlogged). I had already booked tickets prior to discussing the class with them and was happy to send them the full amount for the class ($550).

Unfortunately about a month after I booked the class with them, the airliner I had booked with went bankrupt(Skybus Airlines). I called :blackbarand told them about this unfortunate situation and asked if due to the extremely strange circumstances(who knew that more airliners would follow) if I could have a refund. :blackbar seemed understanding and replied in the affirmative. This call was made in the 2nd week of April. A few weeks went by, and no check had arrived, so I called again. This time, while I forget which of them I spoke to, I was told something to the gist of “as soon as the next paycheck comes in we’ll get the check out to you”. That was fine by me, I wasn’t in a rush to get it and was ok with waiting. The beginning May came and went, towards the end of the month I started calling them. I think I called 20 times before anyone picked up(and only when using a number that was not the usual one I called from). I once again asked where it was, got the run around, and was told to call back to speak with :blackbar.

3 weeks ago I finally got in touch with :blackbar1 who said she was ready to mail a check, but misplaced my address. I excitedly gave it to her. A week passed and still no check. 2 weeks. Today makes 3 weeks.

I feel lied to and I’m sick of waiting. I hope that in future people will consider who they do business with a bit better and check around a bit more before they go in the wrong direction.

I’m going to cross post this to TDS, the CaveDiver forum and a few others in hopes of perhaps getting some reaction.

Thanks for reading
Lord1234
Leo Laskin


TDS post at: http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32283

Leo, while I'm not familiar with :blackbarpersonally, but they are not the best with communication. I sent them an email (my generation would much rather Email than call...isn't that sad?), and it took a long while to get one back about a prospective class. The email only said to call a (given) number at a certain time because email/PC's weren't their thing, and they'd rather speak on a phone, and aren't home very often. Just a little info that might help you.

Danny

Thanks for the heads up. The thing is I hae spoken to them plenty, and I am just upset about being lied to. Frankly, if they had told me back then(3 months ago) that there were no refunds, then I would have probably been ok with it. It's being told, "sure you can have a refund" and then not getting one that upsets me.

My buddy Robin booked a Mexico trip through them. They cancelled it, and when she asked for a refund, they said they would give her one.

Several years later she gave up.

i would never pay in front... Some # yrs ago i paid for my class to one mr.sidemount guru. Guru cancelled the class few times and then dissappeared avoiding to respond to my attempts to contact him and his "civil" business. However he kept being consistently listed as a honorary board member of N??? for all these years (not sure for if he is still a big guy in N??? because i just lost interest to that agency for the last couple yrs).

The lesson should be learned but i have short memory for such things so the last summer i did my ow divemaster training w/one gone by now diveshop. Guess what? I still don't have a card and instructor was gone. This time i was more offended by the fact and i finally got to the person in PADI who suspended that guy instructor's status so he had to explain to PADI what is going on. For a few month before his final disappearance he lied to me that he requested all the required paperwork and it was all the PADI's fault. I had to pay annual fee again (smth like $80 more) but at least i feel happier now waiting for the stupid card.

Should i say the names? It is not going to help anyone because some other instructor will do the same next time and these guys from my story are already probably gone to fool people elsewhere than diving. Just don't pay upfront period.

yes...i guess thats my fault for trusting people and paying in advance.

bash the hell out of them everydive shop you go to tell anyone you can fly a flag @ your local dive spot thanks for the heads up i will add then to my list of shi$ heads

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Originally Posted by deepdiver4

bash the hell out of them everydive shop you go to tell anyone you can fly a flag @ your local dive spot thanks for the heads up i will add then to my list of shi$ heads

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these posts are only the beginning.

Obviously they're annoyed by people who change the're mind.

I have had better experience with tec dive instructors and agencies. Having paid up front in full and then having personal issues that prevented me from completing the class for a bit over two years, the instructor has continued to honor the pre-payment, inviting me to rejoin whenever able. I did not ask for a refund, but am not the type that would. I paid up front on good faith for a specific date and time and did not fulfill my end. Not my fault, things beyond my control. Nonetheless, it's my problem, not theirs. I'm pretty sure they would have honored your payment had you sought another time, rather than a refund. Certainly a bit of clarity about nonrefundable deposit/payments would have prevented ill-will, but not everyone thinks that far ahead. It's not their fault you couldn't do what you said you would.

Admittedly, they should not have said ok to a refund then not provided it right away. But what are you gonna do?

I wonder what the general consensus is on paying up front and not getting refunded when wanted, or getting refunded on demand?

-skip

Leo, I can understand you being very upset about this situation, believe me !!! There may be other problems beyond their control at the moment. For one, the cave diving business has been very slow this year. Gas prices have slowed the flow of cave divers into N. FLA, (lets face it, we are all suffering from high gas prices. Hell my guess is that is the same reason Skybus Airlines went under) high water has also played a huge factor in the number of cave divers declining in the area. They are both cave instructors and rely on cave divers coming into the area for training and guided dives, so I could very easily see money being "tight" for the two of them at the moment. Maybe there are other factors playing into this as well, but these are two things that I know have everyone in cave country, that rely on cavedivers, feeling the crunch right now.

If I know the both of them, like I think I do, your money will be refunded as soon as they are financially able to make it happen. In the meantime, I wish you the best of luck with this, but then again you don't need it, they will make it right.
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They have a legal obligation to either refund the money or to follow the terms of their contractual agreement with you. An advance deposit is held by the entity and booked as "unearned revenue" until the terms of the contractual agreement have been fullfilled. Your options are to sue in "Civil Court" and to report them to the Better Business Bureau. I personally would do both.

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Originally Posted by Bill Rotella

They have a legal obligation to either refund the money or to follow the terms of their contractual agreement with you. An advance deposit is held by the entity and booked as "unearned revenue" until the terms of the contractual agreement have been fullfilled. Your options are to sue in "Civil Court" and to report them to the Better Business Bureau. I personally would do both.

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Yea...but living up in boston, suing in Civil Court maybe difficult. I am unsure of the laws in FL, but in MA, both parties must appear...

--L

I think I've always payed for my dive classes in advance. But by in advance, I mean I show up for the first class, pay, then the class starts. I don't think I've ever had to send money prior to the start date.

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Originally Posted by cavediver256

Leo, I can understand you being very upset about this situation, believe me !!! There may be other problems beyond their control at the moment. For one, the cave diving business has been very slow this year. Gas prices have slowed the flow of cave divers into N. FLA, (lets face it, we are all suffering from high gas prices. Hell my guess is that is the same reason Skybus Airlines went under) high water has also played a huge factor in the number of cave divers declining in the area. They are both cave instructors and rely on cave divers coming into the area for training and guided dives, so I could very easily see money being "tight" for the two of them at the moment. Maybe there are other factors playing into this as well, but these are two things that I know have everyone in cave country, that rely on cavedivers, feeling the crunch right now.

If I know the both of them, like I think I do, your money will be refunded as soon as they are financially able to make it happen. In the meantime, I wish you the best of luck with this, but then again you don't need it, they will make it right.
__________________

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Sorry TJ, but I disagree. This is a business, and as such should be run as a business.
Would you be happy if the company you worked for told you that you had to wait 3 months for your paycheck because things were "a little tight".
If you cant manage your creditors, you should consider closing the door. Its very sad when these things happen, but cash flow management is the killer of most failed business's.

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Originally Posted by BobK

I think I've always payed for my dive classes in advance. But by in advance, I mean I show up for the first class, pay, then the class starts. I don't think I've ever had to send money prior to the start date.

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I too never paid in advance. Always when class began.

Is there any written documentation about this class agreement?

Wouldn't this discussion be better suited discussing means of payments, customary procedures for classes, and such and let the parties involved resolve their problem. Accusations on the forum prove nothing.

And what happened to our court system and ultimately the NACD and CDS?
If these complaints are valid, that's where the student should be. If he feels he too far away, maybe he should have thought about that before he laid down X$ before his class without any written agreement.

I called the training director of the CDS. He told me they do not get involved in their instructors financials.

Okay, we can all throw stones but I have had enough. They have been crucified enough, both here as well as TDS (especially). None of you people know what the hell is going on with them so give it a "ffing" rest. We can all speculate about what the hell is going on but none of us are walking in their shoes. I know this, THEY ARE NOT THIEVES, so quit treating them like they are. Of all the instruction that I have received in diving, none has been more thorough than hers. I am disgusted by the freaking politics in cave diving! These people have devoted their lives as well as their families well being into making this a safer sport for all of us. I think some idiot posted on TDS about feeling weird about taking instruction from a " chain smoker " That idiot must have never dived with them because they both have the consumption rate of a CORPSE! Please guys, these people have made a more positive impact on our community than most of us could ever dream of only because they had the nuts to do so! I know this, I am a better diver because they EXIST! I am proud to know them and consider them my mentors! My daddy always said opinions are like "A-holes" and there sure are alot of "A-holes" lurking around here!

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Originally Posted by RHolmesJr

Okay, we can all throw stones but I have had enough. They have been crucified enough, both here as well as TDS (especially). None of you people know what the hell is going on with them so give it a "ffing" rest. We can all speculate about what the hell is going on but none of us are walking in their shoes. I know this, THEY ARE NOT THIEVES, so quit treating them like they are. Of all the instruction that I have received in diving, none has been more thorough than hers. I am disgusted by the freaking politics in cave diving! These people have devoted their lives as well as their families well being into making this a safer sport for all of us. I think some idiot posted on TDS about feeling weird about taking instruction from a " chain smoker " That idiot must have never dived with them because they both have the consumption rate of a CORPSE! Please guys, these people have made a more positive impact on our community than most of us could ever dream of only because they had the nuts to do so! I know this, I am a better diver because they EXIST! I am proud to know them and consider them my mentors! My daddy always said opinions are like "A-holes" and there sure are alot of "A-holes" lurking around here!

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Hi,
I know that they have made a positive impact on cave diving. Never have I questioned their instruction or their history of rescuing people from caves, training people, etc. What I have brought into question is their financials. I have not called them thieves but, obviously by now, they know about this and the TDS post. You would think if they had something to say on their own behalf to disprove what has been said, they would have come online and said something.

--L

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Originally Posted by lord1234

Hi,
I know that they have made a positive impact on cave diving. Never have I questioned their instruction or their history of rescuing people from caves, training people, etc. What I have brought into question is their financials. I have not called them thieves but, obviously by now, they know about this and the TDS post. You would think if they had something to say on their own behalf to disprove what has been said, they would have come online and said something.

--L

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Well Leo I am assuming they have more class than to discuss their personal matters over an internet forum. In your origional post you said that you wanted to spark some sort of reaction, well you have suceeded sir. I did not want to post anything out of fear of adding to the flames that I want to see die. None of this is any of my business so I hope it all works out for everybody.

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Originally Posted by RHolmesJr

Well Leo I am assuming they have more class than to discuss their personal matters over an internet forum. In your origional post you said that you wanted to spark some sort of reaction, well you have suceeded sir. I did not want to post anything out of fear of adding to the flames that I want to see die. None of this is any of my business so I hope it all works out for everybody.

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they haven't called him either

This thread has been tame as all get out compared to TDS.Damage will be noticed by the instructors in question.It all seems so senseless to me and I dont blame the op for posting his unpleasant experience.After all this most who seek further training should probably pay a deposit to hold a spot and pay the balance the morning of the class.

I agree. I am curious of those "friends of the instructors"(who shall remain nameless due to rule 6) to get in touch with me and tell me if you have gotten in touch with them...told them of this thread's existence...and their response.

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Originally Posted by lord1234

I agree. I am curious of those "friends of the instructors"(who shall remain nameless due to rule 6) to get in touch with me and tell me if you have gotten in touch with them...told them of this thread's existence...and their response.

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My name is Roger Holmes and I live in Atlanta, GA and I consider myself friends of the "instructors whom shall remain nameless due to rule #6". And NO, I will not interfere with their personal matters. I am confident that they are well aware of this thread's existence and that they have CLASS enough not to satisfy the hyenia's thirst for blood with with a public response. As I stated earlier Leo, I do hope everything works out, but you have created a freaking mess and if you do not receive restitution for your claim, it is in my opinion that you have been compensated.

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Originally Posted by RHolmesJr

My name is Roger Holmes and I live in Atlanta, GA and I consider myself friends of the "instructors whom shall remain nameless due to rule #6". And NO, I will not interfere with their personal matters. I am confident that they are well aware of this thread's existence and that they have CLASS enough not to satisfy the hyenia's thirst for blood with with a public response. As I stated earlier Leo, I do hope everything works out, but you have created a freaking mess and if you do not receive restitution for your claim, it is in my opinion that you have been compensated.

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Well said!

At this point I feel sorry for both parties, albeit for different reasons.

"It is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt" -Abraham Lincoln

An update:
I recieved a PM today that stated that they have told people that a "check is in the mail". I look forward to it within the next week. I'll keep you folks posted!

Good news! I recieved and cashed a check today!

That is good news for both partys.

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Originally Posted by lord1234

Good news! I recieved and cashed a check today!

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Glad to hear it was worked out :clapper

I did my first class with these two 10 years ago with a group of friends from Germany.
Later we sent dozens of people to do the same through our dive shop in Hamburg.
Since we are living in Florida, we just referred new divers to them, the last ones end last year.

We sometimes paid early, but sometimes they just didn't even asked for money in advance.
We never had any problems, they are in my humble opinion some of the nicest and most professional cave instructors, well spoken, friendly, always helpful, not hunting every dollar you have, extending course times and training dives if they feel it's necessary without ever having charged for their extra time. We forgot dive stuff at their place just to get it back on the next visit one year later. We were offered free fresh ups, got some rental equipment for free because ours broke.

So as usual there are always 2 sides.
Probably they should just have said forget the refund and get lost.
But that's not their style. The style of others can be seen in this thread.

And my name is Michael Barth and I live in Crystal River, So far to rule number 6.

Two things this thread and on TDS taught me are: Cyber bullying works and you can keep at it because people will admire you for it......

Don't forget you can also be a passive-aggressive *******, and it's even more chicken **** then doing it in person.

You can also get your point across by bleeping out your own expletives.

Or you can just go diving and be happy ! :D

Beano

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Originally Posted by Higgins

I did my first class with these two 10 years ago with a group of friends from Germany.

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I was one of them :arrowgreen and it was one of the best courses I ever had!

And now I´m sending people from the divebase I`m running in Norway because of the excellent education I´ve got with the Orlowskis. These 2 people - as far as I know them - spend a lot of time with their students without getting paid at all. Of course they are earning money with cave instructions, but money isn´t all! They give a lot more to their students.

I cannot understand why a thing like this is to be discussed here. If it occured the way it was written here, who knows what was before? I´m sure they had strong reasons - as far as I know them. The one who started this thread forgets, that everyone normally only mentions his own point of view!

No one has the right to talk that way about other members without knowing the backgrounds. This could mean to ruin one´s business! Did you think about?

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Originally Posted by Higgins

We never had any problems, they are in my humble opinion some of the nicest and most professional cave instructors, well spoken, friendly, always helpful, not hunting every dollar you have, extending course times and training dives if they feel it's necessary without ever having charged for their extra time. We forgot dive stuff at their place just to get it back on the next visit one year later. We were offered free fresh ups, got some rental equipment for free because ours broke.

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Yes indeed! I will always recommend them for everyone interested in cave diving.

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Originally Posted by Higgins

So as usual there are always 2 sides.
Probably they should just have said forget the refund and get lost.
But that's not their style. The style of others can be seen in this thread.

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That´s it!

My name is Christiane Jurick, German full cave diver living in Norway :yawinkle: